"Unbalancable by Design"

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xLindrea

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
Someone like Blitzcrank is really much harder to nerf because his strength is also his defining characteristic. It's up to live team to determine if Blitzcrank is a problem though.
I think your live team is missing the point to why we believe Blitz is too strong right now. His pull will never go away because that is Blitz, we understand, but now you have the scariest lane support added with the fact he's extremely tanky because of his passive.. once he's level 6 he can lock you down for 3 seconds without you being able to do ANYTHING about it.

We have said it before.. nerf Blitz's passive so there's an actual penalty to his pulling and he just doesn't do blind pulls. Give us wiggle room between his pull and his knock up.. make it so that if we do get caught we have to spend a costly summoner like flash to survive but give us that chance. And his speed boost just makes him insane in terms of pull silence run away


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Yinne

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelarm View Post
Nothing is "unbalanceable by design." That's such a silly thing to say, I can't believe people actually argue that. Almost every ability in the game has several different numbers associated with it, all of which can be changed at Riot's discretion.

Take Ryze's Q for example. It's a pretty simple spell, single-targeted magic damage and that's it. But even such a simple spell has many different numbers associated with it - base damage, scaling damage, cost, cooldown, range, etc. Any or all of these numbers could be changed and the balance of the spell would change.

So people say Blitzcrank is unbalanceable by design? BS. His Q has base damage, scaling damage, cost, cooldown, range, missile speed, stun duration... I probably even missed a few. If he was proven to be overpowered, any negative change to those numbers would make him weaker, and could continue to make him weaker until he stopped being overpowered. How is that unbalanceable?

Of course it's a horse of a different color to keep everything balanced and still fun to play. That's more of a challenge.

no, unbalancable by design refers to champion abilities that if nerfed, will pretty much destroy the champion, or render the champion very weak.

Champions that are unbalancable by design tend to be 1 trick ponies, Blitzcrank, no matter what ratio or cooldown, as long as he lands a pull that isn't retarded, he did good.

However, if u nerf his range, he will become very lackluster to play.


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Krynul

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yinne View Post
Hi Nome, can you give us some insight on the Riven nerf? I'm pretty angry because Riven can be countered by a lot of champions top lane, such as Darius, Udyr, teemo, pantheon, etc. While she herself only mainly trade with others at melee range.

In short, why the Riven nerf? You guys have already nerfed BC.
Darius and Teemo both take out a LOT of people in top and so does riven. Now that BC got nerfed you don't see anywhere near as much panth, and you've never seen much Udyr. There's really not much of anyone who can take out riven really in a trade. She might have some counters, but she overwhelms the vast majority of tops.

Teemo just got nerfed so we'll see where that puts him, he probably still has a massive advantage against most people top (which he probably should since that's his role and I don't approve of anti-role champions being nerfed into the dirt for functioning, I just hate how teemo is almost fool-proof at it).

As for Darius it's a heated debate, I think he's too strong and so do a lot of people, but Riot and much of the community seems steadfast in the belief that his negatives outweigh or balance his positives.

All other things considered Riven has been utterly dominant since she came out, and she's only really ever received slaps on the wrist over it. She's an incredible bully and I don't see riot nerfing her heavily in the future. They've resisted doing so this entire time, so any nerfs she recieves won't be that serious. I agree she doesn't need very heavy nerfs at this point since she leaves room for counter play. The CC is a pretty big part of what makes her work, so I think maybe slight nerfs to her early game damage might be what needs to happen to keep her from utterly brutalizing other people in trades. I'm not really an expert at this so we'll see what riot comes up with.


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GaoShiki

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Wait, wait, OP, which balance patch are you <s>whining</s> talking about?


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Kelarm

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthropics View Post
Nobody intelligent gives a damn about solo queue win rate. Olaf has a 47% win-rate and is one of the most competitive picks for top lane. Alistar is at a consistent 45 or so % win rate, yet is also a competitive tournament pick. Bringing up solo queue win rates is a waste of time when considering how powerful a champion is in competitive play.
It is not at all a waste of time. The vast, vast majority of league games played are solo Q games. To dismiss data from these games as irrelevant is asinine. Statistics do not tell the whole story and must be used properly, but they are important.

Tournament games are not necessarily the best indicators of balance either. For one thing there are a lot less of them so your sample size is way smaller. For another thing when players are that good and have basically mastered their champions of choice, it distorts the picture. There is definitely something to be said for how strong a champion is in the hands of an average player.


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FrozenChinchilla

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Senior Member

12-20-2012

In terms of balancing... they don't want all champions to be perfectly balanced.
They want some champions to specialize in certain situations. Sometimes a counter, sometimes a specific strategy. The huge amount of champions allows this.

As Morello says it, it's balance by design.

As long as you keep out the overpowered champions.


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Anthropics

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelarm View Post
It is not at all a waste of time. The vast, vast majority of league games played are solo Q games. To dismiss data from these games as irrelevant is asinine. Statistics do not tell the whole story and must be used properly, but they are important.

Tournament games are not necessarily the best indicators of balance either. For one thing there are a lot less of them so your sample size is way smaller. For another thing when players are that good and have basically mastered their champions of choice, it distorts the picture. There is definitely something to be said for how strong a champion is in the hands of an average player.
This is quite true and I apologize for calling it a waste of time. However, Blitzcrank himself also has a comparatively small sample size within ranked games due to his ban rate, as does Alistar. A champion that is banned that often is problematic, particularly when those bans are occurring at all levels of play. It is not the win-rate that typically tells you how a champion is doing, but the rate of pick and ban.


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Dactylogram

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthropics View Post
Champions do not need to follow a homogenous cookie cutter formula to be balanced

[...]

Give Heimer a small buff while he waits for his rework. Give Sion one of his AP ratios back. Give Xerath some more damage on arcanopulse. Reduce the cooldown on Karma's mantra. Increase Brand's damage on his passive. I frankly do not care. We do not need to leave champions in a state of being clearly broken or clearly useless for a year while we sit twiddling our thumbs for a rework. It is not hard to change numbers in the coding as a temporary fix while you look for a better solution.
You sir, truly deserve more attention. +1.


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VexingRaven

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Amumu counters Blitz.


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Yinne

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krynul View Post
Darius and Teemo both take out a LOT of people in top and so does riven. Now that BC got nerfed you don't see anywhere near as much panth, and you've never seen much Udyr. There's really not much of anyone who can take out riven really in a trade. She might have some counters, but she overwhelms the vast majority of tops.

Teemo just got nerfed so we'll see where that puts him, he probably still has a massive advantage against most people top (which he probably should since that's his role and I don't approve of anti-role champions being nerfed into the dirt for functioning, I just hate how teemo is almost fool-proof at it).

As for Darius it's a heated debate, I think he's too strong and so do a lot of people, but Riot and much of the community seems steadfast in the belief that his negatives outweigh or balance his positives.

All other things considered Riven has been utterly dominant since she came out, and she's only really ever received slaps on the wrist over it. She's an incredible bully and I don't see riot nerfing her heavily in the future. They've resisted doing so this entire time, so any nerfs she recieves won't be that serious. I agree she doesn't need very heavy nerfs at this point since she leaves room for counter play. The CC is a pretty big part of what makes her work, so I think maybe slight nerfs to her early game damage might be what needs to happen to keep her from utterly brutalizing other people in trades. I'm not really an expert at this so we'll see what riot comes up with.
Ahem, Jax, Garen, Darius, Jayce, Kayle, Nidalee, Olaf, Elise. All popular tops that can lane against Riven.