"Unbalancable by Design"

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GoodwicK

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by orakio View Post
I think you are misunderstanding entirely. ect
okay you can ignore my arguments so i can ignore yours. I think you are the one who is misunderstanding me. I main adc mostly and i know the role that supports play. I play it myself sometimes. I know blitz is balanced because it's not an instant win like playing diana used to be, or like playing rengar top used to be, or like playing kat mid still is. to me that means balanced. blitz is a great pick to have on the team, he's not my favorite to fight against, but with wards (!) and with good positioning and map awareness (!!!) you will win every time. look me up i have over 3000 games played i know wtf i am talking about. but really though you are still implying that blitz isn't balanced, and i implore you to actually get your ass onto bot lane, and fight him with the counters that i suggested previously. then you will understand blitz is not op.


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ElementzPRO

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
Someone like Blitzcrank is really much harder to nerf because his strength is also his defining characteristic. It's up to live team to determine if Blitzcrank is a problem though.

Well then the live team has downs
time to look for some new employees
this time try to avoid looking in short busses


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Calys Teneb

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onisake View Post
I actually said blitz's reward is too great for his risk in getting that reward. it's the exact same reason eve and twitch were nerfed into oblivion a while ago and then later reworked.
Because a grab that is slow, easy to bait, and easily dodged and has a cooldown of twelve seconds is equivalent to indefinite stealth. They weren't reworked because of low risk, high reward, although it was part of it. They were reworked because the only counter-play against them was for an entire team to slow down their build by building temporary items specifically to counter a massive advantage.

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compared to Soraka, Sona, Jana, and lulu? no. he's a tank support. sorry you missed that memo somewhere. if he's getting blown up in laning phase bottom it's because you're going against a kill lane. blitz burst is up there with Taric and Leona.

by that same reasoning Alistar 'gets blown up' in laning phase.
Got news for you bro. The meta isn't about sustain anymore. Riot has specifically stated that they hated the sustain meta. That's why sustain supports got nerfed into the ground and tanky kill lanes came out. If you can't deal with a champ who has to specifically build mana to use his most tanky ability that has a huge recharge, is dependent on what resource he currently has, and lasts for a very short period of time rather than building resists and health, you're going to struggle with the champs that get much better tanky ratios. His shield in the laning phase is TINY because he's spamming grabs and hasn't built much mana. You can't burn through another hundred? Don't have ignite? Or are you just mad because you didn't secure the kill and forcing him home isn't good enough for your ADC to free farm.

Taric and Leona? They have to build AP to have huge burst. If they do that, they're not tanky. If they build normally, they have average burst with other supports. Supports have naturally high AP ratios early which scales off late game so that they can take advantage of cheap items as they won't be getting significant gold. So you can say that every support has huge burst early if they itemize for it. Sona's is amazing. Soraka's is why there was Soraka mid for a while.


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Actually i'd rather them reduce the range. it was an example of what they could do instead of doing that. i think a range reduction would over-nerf blitz. so i provided an alternative.

i don't see you providing solutions. I see you complaining to no end or result.
I don't see a problem playing against him, so I don't see a solution necessary. Playing against a Blitz is easy. Countering his lane is easy. Want to free farm? Choose a support that will punish Blitz for hitting his grabs. Choose an ADC that will make their ADC tell Blitz to stop grabbing. Know who zones Blitz from his grabs really effectively? Leona. Taric. Hell, even Lulu. Because they can really punish the ADC for following up on that pull.


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sounds like shen is doing his job. I see no problem with this. Shen's a bit of a consolation prize. but it's better than what we have now where shen comes in with full health. and instead of getting a shen kill, you get hard countered because he comes in, full health, taunts all of you and the fed carry wipes your team.
He can still come in and taunt your team and the fed carry is going to wipe your team without killing Shen, unless Shen is using it when he was at low health just to get the carry away. So if Shen is using it at low health, he was going to die whether or not the shield was there. You didn't actually change the way his ult works. That's the problem you failed to solve. It's either still a two v whatever vs whatever vs one, either still an escape for the sacrifice of a less valuable Shen, or still not used.



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that's because you're not paying attention and you're not thinking.
I'm a designer working on three different projects with three different teams. Pointing out the flaws in your logic doesn't mean I'm not paying attention and not thinking. It means that you don't like having flaws pointed out in your logic.

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The majority of the problem is not at the high levels of play where people know what they are doing. this is what is escaping you.

They are a problem at the LOWER levels of play where the majority of the player base is. you're very condescending and it's annoying. use your head and think, please.
Here, I'll LolKing myself for you.

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/22252406

Still think I'm condescending? I'm at a low level of play and I DON"T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THESE CHAMPS IN THEIR CURRENT STATE.




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so are you going to go around and teach EVERYONE who doesn't know how to counter play them to counter play?

it's bad design when it's incredibly difficult to counterplay. Kat is another champ that is banned a lot. there's nothing really OP about her. in fact she's one of the easiest champions to counter. anyform of CC can shut down her ult. yet you constantly see some people try to go against her with no CC.
And they get punished for it. Either you learn it on your own or you don't. If you can't learn it, don't QQ because someone punishes you for your lack of knowledge. It's not bad design to be "difficult" subjectively. If it's difficult objectively (see above reference to the real, Red-provided reason for those Eve and Twitch nerfs) then yeah changes are made. but just because YOU find it difficult doesn't mean it IS difficult.

That's like going to a job interview for programming and claiming that you should get the job because your college didn't force you to take a programming class.

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Singed is a problem champion for new players. there's nothing really OP about singed, and he's not a complicated champ. In fact i'd say he's a pretty weak champion overall. yet consistently new players will have problems with him. why is this? because his mechanics are not intuitive to counterplay. I have gotten a lot of friends into league, and i've spent a lot of time playing at the 1-15 level range. and this is where the most work is needed. the learning curve for some champions is too high. over 100 champs? that's a lot to learn. when you have smurf accounts down there it's really an unfair advantage.
As a Singed main, you know what the counterplay to Singed is that will keep people from dying to him?

STOP CHASING SINGED.

That's it. That's all you need to do. People see a low Singed and want to kill him. You're not going to kill him unless you stack CC on him. Let him go and kill the carry he was trying to peel you away from. If you can't get away from Singed, well you probably were out of position and going to die regardless.

If he tower dives you, flings you out? Leave your tower. Tower's not worth your life.

Why should I have to go and teach all the players how to counter champs they have problems with? Either you research their weaknesses, you learn through mistakes, or you watch how others counter them or you never do. That's why you have thirty levels to learn and you have a difference between unranked and ranked to continue learning.

Blaming the champions kit because you can't play against it is just laziness and ego. You don't want to learn how to play against it, so you would rather someone else fix it for you.

Get over the ego that you're better than you're ranked at and that other champions are OP because you have a problem with them, learn how to play against them, and quit asking things to be made easier for you. Because, no matter how easy things are made, there will always be champions who you can't win against solely because those players ARE BETTER THAN YOU.


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Calys Teneb

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Primanocte View Post
It's called passing the buck.
What, you mean he wants input from someone who can see and compile the hard data of common play rather than just the theoretical data based of of current numbers before he makes a decision?

Gee, wanting complete information. How lazy.

I'm basically through with this thread. All it's degenerating into is people think they're better than they actually are. If I was going to read sixteen pages of excuses, I'll just go back to the Tribunal forums and look at people blaming others for their own behavior.


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Patient 0

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vannan Marlfox View Post
Shen is fine. Wtf are you smoking OP.

I can't figure out why he's ever banned.
People don't like there famished being kicked in the face


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A Rabid Teemo

Senior Member

12-21-2012

The problem with your argument is that it's based on opinion and perspective. Just because you say something is OP or UP doesn't mean it actually is. Amumu was widely regarded as a useless jungler throughout most of Season 2 until the CD on his ult was buffed and high levels players showed the success of playing him as a mage. But even after receiving ratio nerfs that put him in a worse spot than when he was considered useless, you still think he's OP. Not everyone can be right. He can't be OP and useless at the same time.

It's almost the same with Blitzcrank. He was almost never picked before the sustain nerfs. But the sustain nerfs didn't make him OP. He was already strong, people just didn't realize it until he was played in tournaments.


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LongDongVonDongr

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
I alluded to this in another post I wrote, but you're generally right--there's no such thing as an unbalanceable concept.

However, an important consideration to take when finding that happy medium between OP and UP is whether that ability still feels good to use in the end. Lee Sin is a great example for a champion that's actually very easy to nerf, as he's quite mechanically bloated...
Q: damage, dash, execute, reveal
W: shield, dash, energy return, life steal, spell vamp
E: damage, reveal, attack speed slow, move speed slow
R: damage, targeted interrupt, AoE interrupt
It's incredibly difficult to nerf individual numbers, as that runs the risk of watering it down so much he's no longer fun to use. However because his abilities have so much tacked on, it's a simple matter to remove one of the more minor aspects without destroying his core gameplay (for example, the energy return on his W that most people, including me two days ago, don't even know about).

Someone like Blitzcrank is really much harder to nerf because his strength is also his defining characteristic. It's up to live team to determine if Blitzcrank is a problem though.
This is why you keep a champion's strength as it is and make it's weaknesses more apparent. Making Blitz feel like a support and not an off tank would be a great start.


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Purgation

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
I alluded to this in another post I wrote, but you're generally right--there's no such thing as an unbalanceable concept.
No, but some abilities are inherently binary, making it very difficult to strike a good balance.

This is not the first game ever to find "pulls" difficult to balance.

Another attribute that comes to mind as being very difficult to balance is stealth, for example (which is why Twitch and Eve always seem to veer between unplayed and OP)

In theory, nothing is impossible to balance, but in practice some types of abilities are much tougher to balance than others.


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Purgation

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by A Rabid Teemo View Post
It's almost the same with Blitzcrank. He was almost never picked before the sustain nerfs. But the sustain nerfs didn't make him OP. He was already strong, people just didn't realize it until he was played in tournaments.
In both cases, it took a while for people to figure out how their respective abilities could be "abused"

No doubt there is some champion right now that is underplayed, who has a distinctive ability that a pro will eventually showcase and it will become FotM and then on permaban status.


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A Rabid Teemo

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purgation View Post
In both cases, it took a while for people to figure out how their respective abilities could be "abused"

No doubt there is some champion right now that is underplayed, who has a distinctive ability that a pro will eventually showcase and it will become FotM and then on permaban status.
No, it wasn't that people never figured it out. I knew when I first started playing that blitz's CC was ridiculous. In fact, almost everyone knew. But he wasn't FoTM. People were trying to abuse what they thought were superior tactics with global comps and what not.