"Unbalancable by Design"

First Riot Post
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Onisake

Senior Member

12-21-2012

I agree. I do a lot of problem solving for a living. and whenever I handle a problem i almost always do it in stages. short term fix. mid-term fix and finally long-term solution.

champion reworks fall into the later. number tweaks are short/mid-term solutions. I'm not sure why riot doesnt' do more of the short/mid.

Looking at most banned champions, I see Blitz, Shen, and Malphite. Of these three, i think malphite is the easiest to deal with.


Blitz's main issue is his grab. it's the core of his kit. it gives him insane zone control due to it's long range. I can't count the number of times i've been in bot lane as a support and my ADC refuses to move forward because they are afraid of that grab. I feel blitz's kit is only unbalanced when he lands the grab. without the grab, the rest of his kit is pretty balanced IMO.

So how to fix the grab? The obvious thing to me is to reduce the range. the speed of the projectile is already pretty slow. and in lane it is fairly easy to dodge. but late-game in team fights it can be a problem because he can grab you, and his team can kill you before you team can get anywhere near them unless they have a long range dash. so when he lands that grab. it's pretty much a free kill.

so reducing the range is one way to balance it. alternatively when you compare it to other disrupts that are similar. all other disrupts put the disrupter in danger. Leona, Urgot, etc. they can displace a character but they have to put themselves in danger to do so. this is why their disrupts are more balanced. Blitz disrupt is really very safe. between his natural tankyness, and his passive, and movement steroid he can be incredibly difficult to kill. to me this is really what makes him unbalanced.

Alternatively i think blitz should also move towards his target during the grab and induce a self stun/knockup upon reaching his target. this would allow him to maintain his current range but also balance the grab by putting him in harms way to do so. he's still very beefy and the rest of his kit is nice so it would still work out well. in some ways this is a buff and others it is a nerf. the rest of his kit should be sufficient to protect him as an initiator.

TL;DR: blitz needs higher risk for his reward. he's too safe with his disrupt. the rest of his kit clearly makes him a frontline initiator, but his initiate does not require him to be in harms way to be successful. IMO this is what needs to change.

Shen: similar to blitz, his ult makes him very safe. he can turn any team fight around with it. essentially what i would do is change his shield to more of a 'cover' like mechanic. instead of a shield a portion of his HP pool is consumed. IE: shen uses his ult, instead of doing damage to a shield you do damage to shen. to prevent making this a terrible 'suicide' play he could receive a defensive boost. say, 10/15/20% increase in AR/MR.


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GoodwicK

Senior Member

12-21-2012

so, this thread is officially about blitz? do any of you play bot lane, or are familiar with the counter picks associated with laning against blitz? Volibear, leona, nautilus, alistar. Anyone tankier than blitz who gets hooked to blitz screws up his whole strategy. Even supports like lulu or janna have excellent disengage tactics and shields/cc that help them win trades and poke to weaken blitz' initiates. if blitz doesn't win his lane, he will probably lose the game since it's like fighting 4v5 with a weak blitz.

do you think blitz is tanky? look at my examples, those are tanky supports, not blitz. bot lane is so sketchy number tweaks will ruin him. he won't be able to grab anyone ever cuz he won't be able to win a fight. if u do number tweaks, essentially what you term as nerfed into the ground? were you afk for the patch a month ago when blitz hp was reduced from 550 base to 495? blitz can throw 3 grabs before he run out of mana and has 0 mana shield on bot lane. he is not op, you ppl just cry nerfs cuz u don't know how to avoid grabs. buy wards get some map awareness and stop complaining. oh that's right you wouldn't be complaining if you did any of those things


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Marzbar

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Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthropics View Post
Give Xerath some more damage on arcanopulse.
Are you implying Xerath isnt secretly op?


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Calys Teneb

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthropics View Post
That is exactly what I'm saying. His numbers are too damn good for having a kit that is also that good, but the proper nerfs to numbers could see him in a good place.
You actually didn't say any of that in your original post. You just kinda glossed over and went straight to Amumu.


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orakio

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodwicK View Post
you're talking about late game? then you should be roaming with your team, you should be waiting for blitz to grab your tanky dps, your hard initiator, you should be hiding behind them like a *****, i should know i play enough of the game. if you didn't feed bot lane like a noob cuz you couldn't avoid the grabs you should be able to have a fair fight. blitz grab does not = loss. if you get pulled over a wall, yes you're probably ****ed. map awareness mother ****er. learn it live it LOVE IT

look at page one diamond player telling you none of these tanks are broken. do you listen to his experience, one who has skill one who climbed elo ladder doing things that you or i cannot do? and he's telling you no these tanks aren't broken, you just lack the ****ing skill and team play strategy to ****ing deal with these champs. i play against noobs like you all the time, run when you should commit commit to push lane too far go solo farm end game and wonder why u got ganked by blitz with 500movespeed well here's a tip roam with your ****ing team and win. gg
First off you need to relax a little bit and quit raging so much.

Secondly I didn't state anywhere that grab itself OP or that it is an instant loss or that there is no counter play. I was just pointing out that it is an incredibly strong mechanic and correcting you statement about grab being a 23 second cooldown. People being as imperfect as they are, you will never have a blitzcrank miss every grab throughout a game, so I felt like your statement of "don't get grabbed" wasn't a sufficient argument for blitz being balanced as a whole.

Rocket grab is extremely strong, but mostly balanced due to the fact that you don't really choose your target if the opponent is good about getting initiators between you and the grab. The single ability of blitz that I personally have the largest issue with is powerfist, as I believe the CD compared to other on-next-hit cc's is extremely low, and the cost and nature of the ability as a knockup is strong. At max CDR it is a 3 second cooldown, 1.25-1.5 second knockup.

Ultimately I am trying to point out that blitzcrank is far from being "unbalanceable", and that RiotNome's point that blitzcrank's grab is his definining characteristic doesn't mean that other aspects of blitz can't use looking at in attempt to balance him without ruining the overall feel/design of the champ.


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Jesus the Friend

Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
I alluded to this in another post I wrote, but you're generally right--there's no such thing as an unbalanceable concept.

However, an important consideration to take when finding that happy medium between OP and UP is whether that ability still feels good to use in the end. Lee Sin is a great example for a champion that's actually very easy to nerf, as he's quite mechanically bloated...
Q: damage, dash, execute, reveal
W: shield, dash, energy return, life steal, spell vamp
E: damage, reveal, attack speed slow, move speed slow
R: damage, targeted interrupt, AoE interrupt
It's incredibly difficult to nerf individual numbers, as that runs the risk of watering it down so much he's no longer fun to use. However because his abilities have so much tacked on, it's a simple matter to remove one of the more minor aspects without destroying his core gameplay (for example, the energy return on his W that most people, including me two days ago, don't even know about).

Someone like Blitzcrank is really much harder to nerf because his strength is also his defining characteristic. It's up to live team to determine if Blitzcrank is a problem though.
Just don't turn anyone into Nomad and I'm satisfied.

- Archedgar


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DunklaAlfabet

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Talon/riven nerf is too damn high! lol.. that will hurt them really bad, but anyway..
couoldn´t agree more with your post.. numbers should be fixed inmediately while they work on a "rework/solution" to balance.


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SmokingPuffin

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Blitz and Shen have win rates under 50%. They get banned because people don't like playing against their mechanics, not because they are unbeatable OP champs.


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Calys Teneb

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onisake View Post
I agree. I do a lot of problem solving for a living. and whenever I handle a problem i almost always do it in stages. short term fix. mid-term fix and finally long-term solution.

champion reworks fall into the later. number tweaks are short/mid-term solutions. I'm not sure why riot doesnt' do more of the short/mid.

Looking at most banned champions, I see Blitz, Shen, and Malphite. Of these three, i think malphite is the easiest to deal with.


Blitz's main issue is his grab. it's the core of his kit. it gives him insane zone control due to it's long range. I can't count the number of times i've been in bot lane as a support and my ADC refuses to move forward because they are afraid of that grab. I feel blitz's kit is only unbalanced when he lands the grab. without the grab, the rest of his kit is pretty balanced IMO.
So, what, you're saying a champion is only broken when a person knows how to use the core of his kit?

Shock.

Quote:

so reducing the range is one way to balance it. alternatively when you compare it to other disrupts that are similar. all other disrupts put the disrupter in danger. Leona, Urgot, etc. they can displace a character but they have to put themselves in danger to do so. this is why their disrupts are more balanced. Blitz disrupt is really very safe. between his natural tankyness, and his passive, and movement steroid he can be incredibly difficult to kill. to me this is really what makes him unbalanced.
The only natural tankiness Blitz has is his shield, which is on a long cooldown and he has to build mana to actually use effectivey. He can still get blown up quite easily in laning phase.
Quote:
Alternatively i think blitz should also move towards his target during the grab and induce a self stun/knockup upon reaching his target. this would allow him to maintain his current range but also balance the grab by putting him in harms way to do so. he's still very beefy and the rest of his kit is nice so it would still work out well. in some ways this is a buff and others it is a nerf. the rest of his kit should be sufficient to protect him as an initiator.
So you want to turn him into a worse version of Nautilus. Not that I really mind all the QQ going to Blitz because Naut has better CC, a more useful passive, and with his damage nerfs has been shoehorned into aggressive support regardless, but do go on.

Quote:
TL;DR: blitz needs higher risk for his reward. he's too safe with his disrupt. the rest of his kit clearly makes him a frontline initiator, but his initiate does not require him to be in harms way to be successful. IMO this is what needs to change.
He's not a front line initiator. All he needs for that is a speed boost, knock up, and silence. He's a counter initiator. He punishes you for being out of position. Who else does that?

Any tanks
Any assassin
Any hard CC

At some point you're going to have to learn how to position and not just keep blaming the champions who punish you because you don't.


Quote:
Shen: similar to blitz, his ult makes him very safe. he can turn any team fight around with it. essentially what i would do is change his shield to more of a 'cover' like mechanic. instead of a shield a portion of his HP pool is consumed. IE: shen uses his ult, instead of doing damage to a shield you do damage to shen. to prevent making this a terrible 'suicide' play he could receive a defensive boost. say, 10/15/20% increase in AR/MR.
So Shen ults his team's killing spree carry who is out of position on his own. Your team goes to gank it and get that sweet five hundred gold and bonus assist moneys to try to close the gold gap you have. Shen is 0/8/24. He's worth nothing.

While you're busy taking damage off of Shen during his ult, the fed carry either

A) Escapes because all the damage is going to Shen
B) Kills you because all the damage is going to Shen

Which is exactly what happens now with a shield.

What problem did you solve here again? I'm missing it.


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Calys Teneb

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Look, if you want to change the numbers, I'm fine with that as long as it's sensible and not a witchhunt. But at some point you have to realize that it's the job of these champions to punish you for your inability to position or time usage of your abilities/escapes. You can't keep nerfing every champion who is designed to punish people because THEY CAN'T POSITION THEMSELVES.

Stop making up the excuses of "This champ is broken because of grab" or "That shield is OP and he can use it from across the map."

COUNTER-PLAY THEM.

Every champion in this game has a designed counter. Otherwise, that's where it gets to be bad design. But just because you go against someone who can fit that champ like a glove doesn't make that champ OP or broken. It means the player is just better than you and knows when and how to use their abilities at their maximum effectiveness.