"Unbalancable by Design"

First Riot Post
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orakio

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bekkal View Post
The thing about Shen/Blitz/Malph is that they aren't numerically OP. People just either A) don't like dealing with them or B) don't trust their allies to deal with them in solo queue.
Blitz is numerically OP. His CD's on E and Ult are insanely low, his Q and ult both have a 1.0 ratio (higher than the ratio for many individual spells of AP casters) and overdrive has one of the highest movespeed/aspeed increases in the game as a steroid, aspeed exceeded only by tristana and twitch but with a longer duration than either of them and a shorter or equivalent Cd.

Riot has said before that Everything about blitz is over the top, but he is "tough to play" and unique and not played that often so they didn't think they needed to make changes yet. Well he is now perma pick/ban status because with experience people have realized that he is simply game changing. You can miss 15 hooks and land 1 and suddenly boom... game changed. Especially later in the game when the death timers are so much longer and you can't afford little mistakes.


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Raptamei

Senior Member

12-21-2012

+1, Icefrog manages to sort of balance the craziest designs (just don't mention the centaur rework. Shut up about that ult) with a reasonable 40-60% win rate. Riot? Too chicken to implement anything even slightly original, and hovering around... 40-60% win rate.

Both games are imbalanced, but Riot sacrificed originality, creativity and the potential for really unique champions on the altar of balance and it didn't do a damn thing.

Because THE MORE SIMILAR YOUR CHAMPIONS ARE, THE MORE IMPACT SLIGHT DIFFERENCES HAVE. Imagine Annie 2.0, exactly the same as the first Annie but with 5 extra damage on her Q. This would make the original Annie completely useless even though the difference is minimal.

This is what is happening right now, what with all the AP mids and bruisers that are nearly identical to each other except one uses balls to do her short ranged AP burst with some dps and low amount of cc, and another uses bombs and a third shoots light and a fourth has plants etc etc.

This is the major reason why this game is so imbalanced. When everyone designed for a certain role (don't give me that "Riot does not design for the meta" bull****) performs this role the exact same way, players just pick the best option. When one champion has a kit that does not fit, it will either be better than the grey blob of other champions at one of the very narrow and highly specific roles required in this game or it will be worse.

Riot calls this "unbalanceable". I call it "no ****, the roles are so incredibly specific and the game is so incredibly static that giving a champion unique strengths and weaknesses breaks the game".


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GoodwicK

Senior Member

12-21-2012

@Op You ask for nerfs to these champs, but you don't indicate what needs to be fixed, or what is broken about them. You literally provide no logical arguments here. It's a qq fest. Omg these champs are so broken qq, that's essentially what I derived from your post. You think a grab on 23 second cooldown is broken? don't get grabbed! amumu's 10 second bandy toss? learn to juke, or possibly even buy a ward. you think shen's taunt is op? have you actually played shen since they nerfed the width of his taunt? it's practically useless you need to be a god with shen to land that. also, amumu had a hard time jungling in s1? ... anyway, just learn to play i have no idea how you got any upvotes at all except for gd being a bunch of whiny noobs. xerath is fine brand is fine 95% of what u said is just garbage


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Eloquid

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumpster View Post
Blitz shen and amumu arent broken, people just dont know how to counter them.
Since when are parrots allowed into forum?


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TheBossmanOfTheQ

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vannan Marlfox View Post
Shen is fine. Wtf are you smoking OP.

I can't figure out why he's ever banned.
His ult has to channel, i shut him down last game I played as lulu. People just hate losing kills to his ult


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Iridos

Senior Member

12-21-2012

OP, the problem with your argument is that it relies on examples of champions that are banned or picked all the time or not at all. That's not a good argument because picks and bans don't necessarily have anything to do with champion power.

The reason champions like Amumu, Shen, and Blitzcrank are always picked or banned has nothing to do with balance... they're perfectly balanced, if not slightly underpowered when it comes to actual stats. The reason that they are always picked or banned is that they have very simple play that requires specific counter-play. So Blitz throws out grabs. Maybe they hit, maybe not, but unless there's one of a few specific champions on the other team, he's not really punished for trying. Which is fine. And it's pretty easy to avoid letting him have a major impact on the game... ward well, don't travel too predictably when he's around and you don't want to get grabbed, and play behind minions in lane. People ban him because they don't want to have to counter-play him, or they don't trust their team to counter-play him, and they pick him because they hope the enemy team will fail to counter-play him. The exact same thing is true of Shen, Amumu, Malphite, and most of the other champs that people like to cry about because "they're always picked or banned." That is not a reflection of OP.

For similar reasons, a champion not being played often doesn't mean they're underpowered. For instance, Kennen is rarely seen these days, and yet I don't think most people would argue that he's underpowered. He just doesn't fit the types of champion that are played right now. He doesn't do well against bruisers top, and he can't shove lane safely against most of the current mids so he can't roam, which is expected from a mid champion today. That doesn't make him UP. Xerath is in a similar position, although honestly I'm expecting him to be played a bit more with the rise of all AD teams. On the other hand, Cassiopeia isn't played very often... and is definitely not UP. Her problem isn't that she doesn't fit the current gameplay, it's that playing her really well is so complex that very few people have really mastered her, and she's not worth playing without having achieved real mastery.

So, a champion being under-played doesn't mean that they're underpowered. There are a few examples of champions that are honestly just trash, but the only ones I can think of right now are being reworked. Not "will be reworked at some point," but are actually being reworked right now.

And overall, that's where your argument fails. Yeah, I might like to see a few more tweaks going into each patch. And I definitely agree that Riot has recently favored really, blatantly excessive nerfs... nerfs that anybody should have known were too much. But I can't agree with your argument because it assumes that champions that have no real balance problems are unbalanced because of picks/bans, which is inaccurate.


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Tehadam

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Amumu is broken?

He isn't, in fact he's far from it.
The key to beating amumu is to put him so far behind in the jungle is that when teamfights come around he won't have the tankiness to survive, even with his ultimate. Counter jungle Amumu = useless Amumu.


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Eloquid

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
I alluded to this in another post I wrote, but you're generally right--there's no such thing as an unbalanceable concept.

However, an important consideration to take when finding that happy medium between OP and UP is whether that ability still feels good to use in the end. Lee Sin is a great example for a champion that's actually very easy to nerf, as he's quite mechanically bloated...
Q: damage, dash, execute, reveal
W: shield, dash, energy return, life steal, spell vamp
E: damage, reveal, attack speed slow, move speed slow
R: damage, targeted interrupt, AoE interrupt
It's incredibly difficult to nerf individual numbers, as that runs the risk of watering it down so much he's no longer fun to use. However because his abilities have so much tacked on, it's a simple matter to remove one of the more minor aspects without destroying his core gameplay (for example, the energy return on his W that most people, including me two days ago, don't even know about).

Someone like Blitzcrank is really much harder to nerf because his strength is also his defining characteristic. It's up to live team to determine if Blitzcrank is a problem though.
Live team, wut..... No, community has long ago determined that he is a problem, as well as Darius and Katarina. Start ****in listening already and stop treating players that spend their life on this game and that bring bread on your table like they're retarded.


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Eloquid

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tehadam View Post
Amumu is broken?

He isn't, in fact he's far from it.
The key to beating amumu is to put him so far behind in the jungle is that when teamfights come around he won't have the tankiness to survive, even with his ultimate. Counter jungle Amumu = useless Amumu.
Oh, only that? Now I'm relieved. And that of course under condition that amumu in enemy team is jungling in the first place. God I hate these snobish high from above replies.


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orakio

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodwicK View Post
@Op You ask for nerfs to these champs, but you don't indicate what needs to be fixed, or what is broken about them. You literally provide no logical arguments here. It's a qq fest. Omg these champs are so broken qq, that's essentially what I derived from your post. You think a grab on 23 second cooldown is broken? don't get grabbed! amumu's 10 second bandy toss? learn to juke, or possibly even buy a ward. you think shen's taunt is op? have you actually played shen since they nerfed the width of his taunt? it's practically useless you need to be a god with shen to land that. also, amumu had a hard time jungling in s1? ... anyway, just learn to play i have no idea how you got any upvotes at all except for gd being a bunch of whiny noobs. xerath is fine brand is fine 95% of what u said is just garbage
At top rank blitzcrank grab is 16 second cooldown. With core blitzcrank items, shurelya's reverie and frozen heart, he has 30% CDR with no runes or masteries. That means his CD on grab is just 11.2 - 9.6 seconds with 30%-40% cdr.

If you don't think that grab on an 11 second CD is pretty dang strong and also think it is 100% avoidable then you are crazy.