(VERY ELABORATE, Custom Champ) Kiya, the Fervor of the Sands

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Katsuni

Senior Member

02-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SephirothWontDie View Post
that's nice, you've made your point, if the OP is refusing criticism, that's not your issue. if its getting to you this badly, you have little self control. downvote and move on. I respect the kind and generous people in this forum, but don't linger on a problem. I agree, tweaks are needed, but its still a cool concept. the more you linger here, the more of your own time you are wasting.
I would like to interject for a moment here, if that would be permissible.

Zarkof does have a point here. Normally, I would suggest that you also have a point, but unfortunately there's an issue with it this time.

See, if Nhan just spam bumped their stuff, it'd be fine. Mildly annoying, perhaps, but fine; there's a dozen other people who bump their stuff just as much, so it's not really like that's an issue.

Is it a good design? Not really. It's imbalanced, poorly thought out, and honestly quite unimaginative. That's fine as well, it's not like the forum isn't 90% content of that nature, either. The only difference is Nhan bumps this enough that Kiya gets fan art on occasion, and because there's art, other people decide to add more art because art already exists. No big deal, it's just a collection of fan art, more than a finished champion design is all.

So why is it that there's a problem at all?

Well... there's the problem. Nhan has a habit of spamming this post everywhere, in every conceivable location and manner possible, and generally in a blatantly rude and obnoxious manner.

If someone asks a question, such as to help them learn how to do better, Nhan shows up and spams Kiya on the thread demanding a review (sometimes it's not even a request, just a statement that the person should do so). If someone specifically asks not to be asked for reviews, Nhan spams Kiya anyway, requesting a review. If it's someone else's compendium of their works, Nhan spams Kiya on it. If it's a guide to teach people how to better themselves, Nhan spams Kiya on it.

Notice the pattern?

This would be tolerable, to some degree, if Nhan even remotely showed any evidence at all of even once having listened to any advice or review given at all. Nhan demands a review, then promptly ignores all the advice provided. Kiya is plastered all over virtually every guide on how to make champions on the forum, yet the design quite clearly shows that Nhan's never actually read any of the guides, or Kiya wouldn't be in the pathetically piss poor quality state she's in.

Kiya could be a good champion with a bit of effort and some work put into her. To be perfectly blunt, there's been virtually zero effort put into Kiya. All the pictures and icons, everything that makes Kiya stand out, is 100% fan art, of which *NHAN DID NOT PRODUCE*.

All the effort for Kiya has been wasted on marketing and spamming everything from LoLWiki, to Mobafire, to the Player Concepts forum. There has been no real evidence provided of having put any real effort into making the champion herself worth playing.

See... I don't care that the design's poor; most are, even those of professionals. The vast majority of designs go through dozens, sometimes hundreds of iterations. Vi, for example, was in various stages of production for literally over two years straight, because they couldn't get her to work right. It was one failure after another, yet an awesome enough basic concept that they just kept working on her to make Vi, well, Vi-able.

As such, yes, Kiya has some slight potential. Not a lot, admittedly, but it's there, and if Nhan put even half the time and effort into working on Kiya, instead of spamming this post with bumps and passing out advertising for her at a rate that would make a telemarketing firm blush with embarrassment, then Kiya would probably be worthy of at least some sort of praise that effort was put into the design.

The simple fact of the matter is, though, that you can't ignore Kiya, because it's spammed in every single thread out there, often in the most inappropriate of places imaginable.

For an example, awhile ago there was a council of players who put a great deal of personal time and effort into trying to teach other people how to make their designs better, and showcasing the better examples on the board. Kiya was spammed not only repeatedly on multiple occasions for requests to be recognized (the rule was you couldn't nominate your OWN champion; a fact of which Nhan ignored about a half dozen times), but also spammed Kiya on not just the thread that was meant to showcase people who were voted to be really worthy of recognition (Nhan didn't even come close), but also spammed Kiya on the council's own personal list of champions (made because their own champions were exempt from being able to be nominated due to conflict of interest). Nhan also asked repeatedly for reviews; these reviews were given and... never read, or at least never referred to, never acknowledged, and nothing changed in the design, just more spam in inappropriate places.

As such, quite a few of the people on this forum who were going out of their way to actively try to make it a better place, and encourage others to work harder, got so fed up and frustrated with Nhan's behaviour, that they quit the forum, and we lost a lot of really kind and courteous people because of it.

This isn't just a matter of "well if you don't like it, ignore it". It's actively such a ridiculously rude and grotesque display of disrespect, and flat out disgusting human behaviour, that Nhan is personally responsible for pissing off more than a half dozen of the friendliest and most helpful people this forum has ever had.

So no, it is our issue. It's this issue of everyone who goes here and wants to improve, and it's the issue of everyone who has even a shred of self respect or desire to help others out.

Nhan is flagrantly rude and disrespectful to quite literally everyone on the forum, and to be perfectly blunt, there are enough people who are getting irritated by it that it will be put to a stop, because, at this point, the advertising spam has gone past the point of mildly annoying, and has become downright obnoxious and disastrous.

I might point out here, that it's actually bad enough that charges could quite literally be pressed, and fines issued, if people were to start requesting that Nhan not post in their thread, if Nhan did it anyway (which would happen since it's pretty clear Nhan's not reading any thread that Kiya is spammed into), on the grounds of failure to comply with a "do not call" request in relation to advertising, considering Nhan quite literally spams more advertisements in inappropriate locations than many companies do in total.

Nhan can and will be removed as a public nuisance if the issue persists. I have enough respect for freedom of speech that I shan't do so my own self, but I'll be quite blunt in stating that Nhan's behaviour is more than warrant for a suspension, and considering the frequency of repeated offenses, eventual permaban, as the lightest of penalties. If someone really wanted to, there's enough offensive content thrown out by Nhan to probably set a precedent-setting court case for online personal advertising, which Nhan would probably lose.

In any case, the point is, this isn't lingering on a problem; it's a widespread contagion which has cost us most of the kind and generous people you've claimed to respect. They simply don't post anymore, and having had personal contact with a good portion of them after the fact, the answer has almost unanimously been the same: Nhan's continual spamming of Kiya getting on their nerves until they've just given up all hope.

We've lost everyone from Villanova through to Echoing, we've lost Thayen and ElementSteele repeatedly for multiple long stretches of time (though they're sort of lingering around at the moment), and most likely we're probably going to end up eventually losing Zarkof and several more to this Nhansense.

In the end, it's not the champion that's the problem. Sure, it's kind of lackluster, but that's honestly not that big a deal. It has the potential to be otherwise. The problem is the incessant and virulent advertising campaign with such caustic and dire ramifications that Nhan has, and continues to employ.

If Nhan stuck to this post, and didn't bother anyone else, it'd be fine.

As it stands, however, this post is probably the single worst thing to have happened to the entirety of the forum, considering the damage it has dealt, and continues to inflict.

It is wasted time and effort to bother even mentioning this, because Nhan doesn't read over anything that's even remotely non-ego-inflating, but it's kind of a catharsis of sorts, to somehow feel like one has at least attempted to do something to prevent the spread of the plague rather than just watching those around them succumb to it's ailment.

Eventually, someone is going to remove Nhan by force. I'm not willing to cross the moral event horizon myself, but I know entirely too many people who are pushed continually closer to that point on a daily basis because of Nhan's antics.

Personally, I just find it a pitiful showcase of the failures of humanity; that there are those who honestly believe this is an even remotely good concept (poor lore which doesn't work with what's in-game anyway, poor abilities, poor balance, poor everything imaginable; the only upside is lots of pictures and advertisement spam). It hurts to see the best and brightest, kindest and most helpful benefactors of the forum being whittled away by this monstrosity of bad taste.

I don't want to see Kiya be deleted, though. I'd just like to see Nhan actually put some effort into the design itself, rather than the brute force advertising campaign is all. There's nothing here worth advertising, and they'd be best off with fixing that before shoving it down everyone's throats.

Anyway, I'm done ranting for now, yet I hope you now see the point behind why people don't particularly like this thread.


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SephirothWontDie

Senior Member

02-09-2013

I know how spammers work, I have seen all different sorts of them. you know how I, as well as the people around, deal with it? we ignore them. disregard the message, that's a free bump for you. if its interrupting a conversation between you and another, quote the person your talking to, then continue on as if it never happened. once again, I respect the kind and generous people here. once spammers find out they aren't getting any attention, they usually move on somewhere else. I learned this through multiple experiences. if they don't, ignore them more. the reason spammers don't bother me is cuz I have seen enough of it for me to be able to act as if it never happened.


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Zarkof

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Senior Member

02-09-2013

It's almost worth framing Katsuni's post in it's own thread to raise awareness of what Nhan is doing, but the fact that 90% of the people that frequent this forum are too stupid to understand anything beyond pretty pictures and sheep-herding marketing tactics makes it so that this effort would be in vain.

Attachment 611287


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LastCenturien

Senior Member

02-09-2013

i like it


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Katsuni

Senior Member

02-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SephirothWontDie View Post
I know how spammers work, I have seen all different sorts of them. you know how I, as well as the people around, deal with it? we ignore them. disregard the message, that's a free bump for you.
This is a great concept in theory, and can work to those with a short attention span with fairly good effect. It doesn't, however, work in the slightest with someone who is absolutely convinced of the holy truth of their cause; ignoring them just makes them think that the message isn't getting through, and thus they simply try to force it into your face that much harder.
Quote:
if its interrupting a conversation between you and another, quote the person your talking to, then continue on as if it never happened. once again, I respect the kind and generous people here. once spammers find out they aren't getting any attention, they usually move on somewhere else.
Once again, here's the catch; "usually". It also assumes they aren't getting any attention... but may I refer you to a previous post of your own, to disprove you on this case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SephirothWontDie View Post
you know, I am sick of you guys, those of you who don't like it. if you don't like it, why are you still here? downvote and move on, but a bunch of us really do enjoy this concept. how many of you have a sound actor? as much artwork? I don't see very much of that, mainly 1 or 2 pictures. but no, this person decided to get a few different pictures, even different skins! if your still here, are you jealous because of all the work put into this? no? then back off and make more of your concepts. or get more pictures/artwork. get a voice for your concepts. but for goodness sakes, stop coming back here! you made your point, now off with you!
Unfortunately, you've been fooled like many others into giving the free bumps due to the mass-spam campaign. Due to the fact that it actually shows results, it's not going to work to ignore it for anyone else, because too many fall for the lure.

You, yourself, honestly thought that significant effort was placed into the champion, yet if you look through it, none of the things you boasted about were actually Nhan's own work. I'm currently the director of art and design for a game company, so it wouldn't be an issue for me to get ahold of far more than Nhan has. Voice acting? No problem, I know several excellent voice actors who'd do it for free. A theme song? Yep, I'm good friends with a composer of which I could easily get interested enough in one of my champions to write a several minute long theme song to, of higher quality than the ones for Vi or Thresh. Artwork? I could have a fully rendered 3D model with animations for casting their spells.

Why don't I?

First off, I don't personally have the time to devote to the needless fluff; the time and effort it'd take to develop a 3D model and animate it would be upwards of 100+ hours of extra time taken, and honestly, wouldn't really make the design any better. The concept is the important part; the art is only important if it's to be implemented into the game, which it's not.

Second, if I got someone else to make it for me, then it wouldn't be fully my design any longer. Go ahead and look at the first page of this post; there's very little actually in it which is of Nhan's creation, and the vast majority of the praise for it (the hard work), comes down mostly to the pictures and icons... of which these aren't even Nhan's in the first place.

I could go on, but it's a moot point; what matters is that your own words are the proof against your own point. You took the bait, you fell for the false impression of effort, and have led us to this situation where we now discuss the matter at hand.

Ignoring Nhan doesn't make the Kiya spam go away; it just makes it more invasive, and more rude in it's application. Nhan's been spam-bumping Kiya for at least two years now (this isn't the first Kiya post; there's actually been quite a few, which routinely are downvoted into the ground due to the poor quality of the design). Nhan doesn't understand the concept of "no", or "go away", and will continue to harass others in a terrible manner.

You know the telemarketer who calls you in the middle of supper? You hang up on them. They do it again? You ask them to stop. At that point, they're legally required to take you off their calling list and can't bother you any longer.

In Nhan's case, it's more of a situation where you're called in the middle of supper, hang up, so they call back immediately on redial several times in a row. You demand they stop calling you, so they continue to poke you repeatedly for the next two years every day, and starts coming to your door, leaving pamphlets in your mail, and trying to break into your house at night to drop off more material. You yell at them to just leave you alone when they show up in the middle of your child's school play, taking the stage and interrupting the middle of the play, and people defend their right to harass you as freedom of speech instead.

This is the case of Nhan, and why it doesn't work.

It's not just a matter of ignoring it. If someone barges into the middle of a lecture, and starts yelling out advertisements over the instructor, you don't just ignore them. You don't ignore them if you have a question and they're advertising in your face loud enough that it's hard to hear the answer. On and on it goes.

Nhan Fiction simply has a habit of being exceptionally rude about the placement of their advertisements. I'm more than a little sick and tired, personally, of trying to give someone the inspiration and encouragement they need to overcome a problem, only to have Nhan show up and spam their thread with more Kiya spam. It's frustrating to watch people who were genuinely interested in trying out making a champion of their own, and they walk into the forum and ask a few questions and all they can see is every thread filled with Kiya spam, including their own questions. I'm more than tired of watching people who have gone out of their way to help others get fed up with having Nhan spam advertisements for Kiya all over their attempts to help people out, while never providing anything of value to the forum in return.

If Nhan at least provided reviews to others, or tried to help other people out, or even so much as just stayed in this thread, it'd be fine. The fact that it's an unending and unwavering crusade to spam Kiya, however, has caused far too many people who have worked hard to help others out, to simply give up trying.

They try to be friendly, and Nhan shoves Kiya in their face. They try to be friendly and review Kiya to try to help Nhan out, and instead Nhan ignores everything they've said because Nhan has no intention of actually trying to put any effort into making Kiya a good design. If they try to get a little help on their own stuff, Nhan spams advertisements for Kiya onto even that. No matter where they go, or what they do, Kiya is always there, and Nhan has learned nothing, and fixed nothing.

I don't personally care about Nhan or Kiya. I can ignore them, and have, for quite some time. However, the reason why I'm even posting here at all is in the past week I've had two more people I know practically break down in tears over how frustrated they've gotten with how much of a ****** Nhan is being yet again, and at this point, I'm about ready to start providing similar treatment to counteract this nonsense.

If this behaviour continues, Kiya will be removed from LoLWiki, as well as Mobafire, and every other location. An army of smurf accounts wouldn't even be needed to downvote spam Kiya considering how many people simply hate the design enough that all it takes is to simply get each of them to be notified when another copy of the post has been spammed out again.

This is a waste of my time and effort, honestly, and I have much better things to do; I can, however, delegate these tasks with relatively high rates of efficiency.

I put a great deal of time and effort into writing an enormous 50 post, 250,000 word long guide on champion creation so that the next generation of game designers could have a source of inspiration to start from, so that they could be inspired to do better and learn the skills needed to enter into the industry. It's a small benefit to a small group, but it might be the nudge they need to make a new set of games for me to play some day in the future.

Nhan, however, jeopardizes that. People who might have once been willing to learn to do better, are instead met with the idea that simple brute force advertising in an intrusive manner with a sub-par product is all that's needed to succeed.

While I believe in the freedom to express your own views, I do not believe in the freedom to impose those views upon others whether they want to listen to them or not.

As such, the first step of this is to make sure that Nhan is fully aware and well informed of what is happening, why it's happening, and what will happen if they do not change their ways.

The next step involves employing a number of irritated individuals to start returning the favour, and having them follow the Kiya spam, by providing an equal amount of spam of how bad Kiya is, and complaining quite loudly about the problems that Nhan is imposing upon the forum. A single, well written message copy/pasted is all that's needed.

If that does not get the message across, removal of all aspects of Kiya's existence is also possible, without too much time or trouble.

If the issue persists further, removal of Nhan's capacity to post is well within capacity, though more trouble than I personally feel that it's worth.
Quote:
I learned this through multiple experiences. if they don't, ignore them more. the reason spammers don't bother me is cuz I have seen enough of it for me to be able to act as if it never happened.
"Just say 'NO!' to bullies!"

Because, obviously, they'll listen.

Just ignore the person who's spamming in your personal thread, or harming your friends to the point they're growing frustrated and are difficult to actually talk to about any topic other than Nhan. It's not that simple.

I have ignored Nhan's behaviour. It's only made the matter worse, and festered to the point of causing far too much damage while it was being ignored.

Ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away; it just makes it worse as it runs rampant without control, without anyone fixing the problem.

No, the reason Nhan bothers me, is because I've seen enough of the consequences of what happens when I ignore this particular problem, for me to not be able to act as if it never happened.

So, I bring the matter up here, because someone has to.

That and because it's like 4AM for me, and I've not much better to do for once. I don't normally have the time to waste on this kind of thing, but I know quite a few individuals who aren't under that same restriction, and who are all too glad to be far more callous than I am likely to ever consider being myself, especially in regards to Nhan and Kiya.

As such, I would suggest this be considered as more of a light warning for Nhan; stop shoving Kiya into other people's posts, and stop asking for reviews that you're never going to look at anyway.

The severity of what happens next, is directly consequential to the shift in behaviour of the perpetrator, or more accurately, the lack thereof.

In short, I don't have the time to mess with this stupidity any longer, but there are those who do, who simply aren't organized enough to bury Kiya forever. An hour of my time to organize them is all it would take to remove this blight from the forum permanently.

I'd rather see Nhan just put some effort into actually working on Kiya and making her into a decent champion, and maybe gaining a bit of humility and generosity towards others. I'd really rather not waste my time on having to deal with this situation, but it's simply come to my attention that it's causing far too many problems to ignore any longer.

So... it will be dealt with, either by Nhan being receptive to criticism, or by having that criticism enforced with the frequency and pervasiveness equal in measure to the brute force advertising campaign under Nhan's employ.

I suppose we'll just have to wait and see what happens. Ignoring the situation, however, is no longer a valid option.


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SephirothWontDie

Senior Member

02-09-2013

you really just compared 2 completely different things. bullies and spam. bullies cause harm. spam? doesn't really, just irritation, which is totally different. as I said, I have enough experience with spammers to ignore them, yet when I see a concept that looks interesting to me, I look at it. I don't come on here a whole lot every day since I have other things to worry about, so I don't immediately recognize spammers unless they make it obvious to me. Ive only seen this thread bumped a few times. and in fact, those that keep commenting on how bad this is are still giving free bumps. I suggest you stop commenting and just downvote. downvote doesn't ignore, but it doesn't bump either. essentially, there is no way to stop this from being bumped due to 1) the OP , 2) people who like it, 3) people who don't and comment to say its terrible. I apologize for not being on here enough to recognize certain spammers, but college is kinda important to me.


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Zarkof

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Sephiroth. Take the time to look at the poster you're defending. Why are you defending a telemarketer? Seriously. Why are you doing it? Are you really that stupid that you can't respect the opinions of veteran council members who have been here longer than you? Just because you don't see it doesn't make it not true. That kind of thinking is extremely shallow and selfish, indicative of stupidity and foolishness. You are nothing but a fool to defend Nhan and the only post that he's made in 2 years. I have lost all respect for you. You didn't even read Kat's post through and through, or else you wouldn't be saying the things you are. Nhan deserves to be punished for his behavior.

Or are you so ignorant that you're attacking a well respected person? That's like going up to Zileas and telling him he doesn't know how to design a champion.


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SephirothWontDie

Senior Member

02-10-2013

don't you recall me saying that I don't get on here as soon as I can every day? I have college to think about, so I really cant be. and once more, you are also bumping the post when you comment on how terrible it is. I have never doubted anyone, I simply said that if you really don't like it, downvote and move on, but don't give free bumps. did I say, "go f yourself, this is a good concept"? no!! you are twisting my words. I stated in 2 separate posts about how I respect the kind and generous people on this forum. did I ever defend nhan? not really, I just said I like the thought of a third Egyptian-based cat champion. I like the egyptian history and cats. don't disrespect me because you twisted my words sir, or I will lose my respect for you.


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Zarkof

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Well then it's too bad you are too blind to see what is really going on and don't understand the situation. You are in the minority here. The point of this situation is that downvoting and moving on isn't an option. You still fail to realize the gravity of this situation and for that I cannot respect your ignorant opinion. You are trying to apply a general case solution to a specific case for which it will not work, and I cannot respect people who do that. It shows massive lack of effort on your end to research, ascertain, and properly conclude what is necessary. You came off as a jerk for your attitude and you will be held in such regard.

Personally, I don't give a sh*t if I'm bumping this thread. It'll get bumped every day regardless. If I want to stop this jerkwad and if I have to bump his thread now to make a beneficial difference in the end, then I don't really care if I have to bump his thread 2 hours earlier than he planned on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SephirothWontDie View Post
you know, I am sick of you guys, those of you who don't like it. if you don't like it, why are you still here? downvote and move on, but a bunch of us really do enjoy this concept. how many of you have a sound actor? as much artwork? I don't see very much of that, mainly 1 or 2 pictures. but no, this person decided to get a few different pictures, even different skins! if your still here, are you jealous because of all the work put into this? no? then back off and make more of your concepts. or get more pictures/artwork. get a voice for your concepts. but for goodness sakes, stop coming back here! you made your point, now off with you!
We're still here because this is a serious problem that needs fixing. We're here to put a stop to Nhan's rampage of spam and misplaced fandom. Art doesn't mean anything if the champion mechanics don't work. Would you rather buy a shiny new model car that has a new paint job, spinners, and underlighting but then as soon as you start it up it falls apart? Or would you rather buy a reliable, well built car that gets you to where you need to go? Do you want a useless trophy or something practical that works? Nhan's concept is nothing more than a broken car that someone put a nice coat of paint on; it looks nice but it doesn't really work. His effort is misplaced. Did you even read Katsuni's post?

You really are blind and ignorant. If you still don't see the point, then there is no point in me stooping down to your low, belligerent level any longer. I'm sorry you weren't born smarter.


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SephirothWontDie

Senior Member

02-10-2013

if I don't like something, I downvote and move on. its no longer my issue. I have the luxury, not the ignorance, to ignore something. did you know there are over 500 pages here? take a look on page 2 or 3 for a change, stop being stuck on page 1. I have no reason to be disrespected. blind? only cuz Im not on here enough. If I was on here every single day, every minute, just to try and recognize some spammer, Id be wasting my life. You wanna downvote me? fine. you wanna argue with me? fine. make more of your own threads, bump others that are on page 2, 3 or 4, bury this for all I care. There are so many more concepts here that can bury this with bumps. if you cant ignore this thread, that's your problem, not mine. as I said, over 500 pages, take a look at the first 3 or 4 instead of the first page. bet you could find a couple good concepts. why don't YOU make a balanced version of this? make a male cat who does magic dps instead of support. you sir like to twist words and stick to one subject. while this is being dealt with, why don't you pay attention to something else since you know you've done all you could here. Im not ignorant, I have the luxury to ignore something, obviously a whole lot better than you. the point I see: Nhan bumps this every day all day and that you people are sick of seeing this thread on the first page day in and day out. as I said, there are more pages than the first, go look at them. you need to get it through your skull that I don't care. my point is a simple as this: to bump this thread on your own is to give Nhan the attention they want, the attention you don't want them to have. Im sorry you weren't born less lazy, because there are plenty of other concepts out there on pages 2 and on unless you cant even click the button that takes you directly there. Ive had my patience, Ive been nice, but you are the one person like someone I know all too well: hard headed and one-track minded. you focus simply on one thing instead of looking at something else. I have the reasoning to focus on what Im doing, making my concepts and trying to balance them. but Ive had no reviews recently to tell me what is wrong with balancing, instead I figure "well, it was fun making this one, but it looks complete" and then I move on. if you had the luxury I have of being able to ignore this thread, then I expect you wouldn't be bumping this as often as you are. have fun bumping this thread you so despise.