Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? - Theming in LoL - @IronStylus, @FeralPony

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BrambleBlast

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12-19-2012

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Xaedo

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12-19-2012

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
I agree with you on this (although the examples of it being done in the past--such as lone druid and that wolf guy from DotA/2--are fairly bland), although one of the reasons it *might* not work in LoL is that it may introduce an element of micromanagement (wherein you'd have to both play the champion and the pet, sometimes even using them for different things). However, I think I have a kit that touches on it a bit (don't mind that it's a redesign--I'll get to those later). Would you enjoy playing something like this, if it were, say, introduced on a different champion? What would you look for in that kind of champion?
I'd like to comment on that redesign idea if you wouldn't mind. I myself am a huge advocate for a fun, easy to use but hard to master, unique pet champion with an underlying theme. I made my own when I just started League but recently re-posted it on GD just to have it whenever I want to come back to it: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...t=ashe+ketchum I encourage you to read it so you understand what I believe a good pet champion should be, even if its a little unbalanced and weirdly scaled . (Not a shameless self bump lol, I encourage you to read it for your own ideas)

Now to give you feedback to your redesign concept by itself and also in a way to make it relevant to this thread. First of all I am also in favor of a redesign of Annie's pet for the same reason you are: it feels like an okay side-effect of a very nice AoE damage spell. However the way you go about creating a pet concept I believe is flawed. A pet concept in my opinion is a champion who works in equal synergy with a summoned pet, and not one that stands idly by while the pet does everything.

Your Tibbers concept would be great for a game like DOTA, where both the champion and the pet could have abilities. The way it stands right now, it appears like Tibbers would be a much better champion alone and Annie has no real reason to be there. In order to change this you have to place a synergy and interdependence between the characters. I once thought of an idea for Annie that was close to yours, which was Tibbers being Annie's passive and two of her abilities were for supporting him from afar or herself (Molten Shield could be applied to him or herself), and her other two were offensive spells for Tibbers and herself (Ex: a rush knockup similar to your Q and a meteor similar to Veigar). The point of this is to say that a pet champion relies wholly on the theme of interdependence and weakness if apart. If you take away the interdependence, you're really just inserting abilities that don't necessarily mesh to the characters, like Maokai's weird ult.

Thank you for reading!


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaedo View Post
I'd like to comment on that redesign idea if you wouldn't mind. I myself am a huge advocate for a fun, easy to use but hard to master, unique pet champion with an underlying theme. I made my own when I just started League but recently re-posted it on GD just to have it whenever I want to come back to it: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...t=ashe+ketchum I encourage you to read it so you understand what I believe a good pet champion should be, even if its a little unbalanced and weirdly scaled . (Not a shameless self bump lol, I encourage you to read it for your own ideas)
Actually, while I was out for the last half hour (walking my dog, no less--how relevant!), I thought about the whole "synergy pet" concept long and hard--and I may have another champion to add to my concept collection, thanks to you! It's an incredibly compelling idea, and to be honest, I'm pretty damn psyched about it. It's not quite the same as your Pokemon Trainer concept, but I'm working towards capturing that sort of synergy and high skill-cap as well, while retaining readability and coherency.

Quote:
Now to give you feedback to your redesign concept by itself and also in a way to make it relevant to this thread. First of all I am also in favor of a redesign of Annie's pet for the same reason you are: it feels like an okay side-effect of a very nice AoE damage spell. However the way you go about creating a pet concept I believe is flawed. A pet concept in my opinion is a champion who works in equal synergy with a summoned pet, and not one that stands idly by while the pet does everything.

Your Tibbers concept would be great for a game like DOTA, where both the champion and the pet could have abilities. The way it stands right now, it appears like Tibbers would be a much better champion alone and Annie has no real reason to be there. In order to change this you have to place a synergy and interdependence between the characters. I once thought of an idea for Annie that was close to yours, which was Tibbers being Annie's passive and two of her abilities were for supporting him from afar or herself (Molten Shield could be applied to him or herself), and her other two were offensive spells for Tibbers and herself (Ex: a rush knockup similar to your Q and a meteor similar to Veigar). The point of this is to say that a pet champion relies wholly on the theme of interdependence and weakness if apart. If you take away the interdependence, you're really just inserting abilities that don't necessarily mesh to the characters, like Maokai's weird ult.

Thank you for reading!
Now that you mention it, I can really get what you're saying--it also creates a problem wherein Annie would be completely useless without Tibbers so she'd feel a lot less helpless than I intended (and I hope you can agree that some degree of helplessness without her Big Daddy-like bear should be involved). I'm not sure, exactly, if two supportive abilities would be appropriate (since I'd like to keep both the charge and the spray of fire), but replacing Molten Wrath with something a little more involved on Annie's part (without upstaging Tibbers--who would be the main selling point of the kit, instead of just a component within it) certainly sounds like it would be an improvement.

I'm a bit stumped as to what that may be, though--my first thought was a Molten Shield ability that, if cast on Tibbers, would act as a temporary Molten Wrath (and thus would take priority while he's active and further drive home "Don't Get Close To This Huge Bear!") and if cast on Annie, it would act like her current Molten Shield. I think I can get a bit more creative (*and readable/coherent*) than that though--feel free to throw any suggestions my way if you have any!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyhawke View Post
No worries man, I'm just informing you guys that the perception could be there. It was all mostly in jest though--that's why I was surprised at the insta downvotes (especially considering the reference was at least somewhat clever). If you say that's the case I believe you 100%. I'm glad to see that you seem less abrasive now then you were a few months ago, posting in the player concepts forum. Good luck with your game design program.
Ah, you recognize me from the Champ Concept subforum? In regards to my abrasiveness (and I won't deny this; the constant uphill battle against people complaining about the idea of my work even existing--despite the fact that, if I were to go through with it, they'd have the option to not be affected by it whatsoever--kind of drove me up a wall), I'd have to attribute that to Peri (BestBilbo). Ever since we bumped into each other on the forums, he's sort of been my "people" guy (acting as a buffer between my hot-headed shounen spirit and the general public), and things have been going much more...smoothly, haha.

Thanks for the well-wishes--and even if you don't agree with my whole LoL 2 project (which is evolving as we speak--like the Annie example here--one of the main reasons I want to introduce it to players instead of just charging forward blindly), I hope to someday create an overall more awesome experience for an even wider array of players! And who knows? Maybe it'll end up growing on you in the end. : D


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Xaedo

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12-19-2012

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Actually, while I was out for the last half hour (walking my dog, no less--how relevant!), I thought about the whole "synergy pet" concept long and hard--and I may have another champion to add to my concept collection, thanks to you! It's an incredibly compelling idea, and to be honest, I'm pretty damn psyched about it. It's not quite the same as your Pokemon Trainer concept, but I'm working towards capturing that sort of synergy and high skill-cap as well, while retaining readability and coherency.



Now that you mention it, I can really get what you're saying--it also creates a problem wherein Annie would be completely useless without Tibbers so she'd feel a lot less helpless than I intended (and I hope you can agree that some degree of helplessness without her Big Daddy-like bear should be involved). I'm not sure, exactly, if two supportive abilities would be appropriate (since I'd like to keep both the charge and the spray of fire), but replacing Molten Wrath with something a little more involved on Annie's part (without upstaging Tibbers--who would be the main selling point of the kit, instead of just a component within it) certainly sounds like it would be an improvement.

I'm a bit stumped as to what that may be, though--my first thought was a Molten Shield ability that, if cast on Tibbers, would act as a temporary Molten Wrath (and thus would take priority while he's active and further drive home "Don't Get Close To This Huge Bear!") and if cast on Annie, it would act like her current Molten Shield. I think I can get a bit more creative (*and readable/coherent*) than that though--feel free to throw any suggestions my way if you have any!
Thanks for replying! The one thing I hate about the online forum setting for communication is the feeling that every message put out is a firm statement, unlike a chat board or regular conversation where the firmness of a statement is replaced by more variable ideas. My support/bruiser idea of Annie was just that, a starting point idea. The same is with my pokemon trainer concept, its not a true pet champion as it involves more then one in a more frantic game play style, but incorporates the feel of interdependence. I hope you didn't feel I was too firm in my beliefs for Annie's abilities, they were just on a whim to further a point.

Now that you mention it, the separation between effects of each ability depending on who it is cast is very interesting! While I don't feel it all too necessary for the Molten Shield (It's purpose is pretty useful for both characters), I do believe that changing it and other abilities would make her kit much more interesting and accommodating. Maybe a seperation between the defense and offense of Molten Shield between the two characters to make it better for different situations.

E: Molten Armor

When cast on Annie she gains 25/35/45/55/65 Armor and MR for 8 seconds

When cast on Tibbers he gains the ability to reflect a portion of basic attacks and single target abilities towards the caster for 8 seconds. Magic damage: 30/40/50/60/70 (+20% AP)


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

12-19-2012

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Originally Posted by Xaedo View Post
Now that you mention it, the separation between effects of each ability depending on who it is cast is very interesting! While I don't feel it all too necessary for the Molten Shield (It's purpose is pretty useful for both characters), I do believe that changing it and other abilities would make her kit much more interesting and accommodating. Maybe a seperation between the defense and offense of Molten Shield between the two characters to make it better for different situations.

E: Molten Armor

When cast on Annie she gains 25/35/45/55/65 Armor and MR for 8 seconds

When cast on Tibbers he gains the ability to reflect a portion of basic attacks and single target abilities towards the caster for 8 seconds. Magic damage: 30/40/50/60/70 (+20% AP)
I can agree with you on that--if the ability is going to have an element of duality (something experimented on with Lulu but ultimately not very clear or readable--shield/nuke split made a little bit of sense, not so much the critter/movespeed split), the two parts should be tied together so they'd still be able to register as "one ability" in the player's mind (visuals can help a lot here, especially in Annie's case).

I certainly agree on the defensive part of the ability--it would make an Annie on her own feel a bit less like a sitting duck (and if it's usable on allies, she'd still have usefulness to her team should Tibbers fall), so players are still punished for controlling Tibbers poorly but not overly so. Mechanically, it works, but I'm not sure if "surrounded by fire" and "she has increased defenses" is readable or readily understandable--even if you were to surround her with little "shields" that are on fire, it would imply that the fire is doing something uncharacteristic of fire, so players would have to "unlearn and relearn" just to understand an element of one champion in particular.

However, when cast on Annie (or, possibly, an ally), it could still have a primarily defensive purpose--although defensive in terms of discouraging aggression, instead of a simple armor/MR buff. The first thing that comes to mind when thinking this way would be:

Molten Armor

When cast on Annie (or, possibly, an ally), she is surrounded by X (4-5) orbs of fire for X (8 or fewer) seconds. Whenever Annie receives damage from any source, the orb flies towards the attacker, dealing X/X/X/X/X + (X% AP) magic damage to them and nearby enemies.

The damage per orb, of course, would be fairly low--you don't want to introduce an element of contradictory anti-fun (the whole point of the remade Annie would be "get past Tibbers, kill Annie," and powerful damage retribution would tell you "don't attack Annie")--and if anything, it would probably have support-level base and scaling (slightly higher-than-normal base, lower-than-normal scaling) to simply keep it as a minor deterrent than a major roadblock. Another possibility would be to simply have the orbs push the enemy back slightly with a bit of damage over time (which might make her too difficult to catch on her own--Tibbers should be her primary defense and offense), have the orbs work like Pix's attacks (being blocked by other units), or turn it from AoE to a single-target DoT that *doesn't* stack, allowing enemies to bypass some of the damage by sticking to her. What do you think?

As for Tibbers, I'm not quite sure how coherent that sort of thornmail-type effect would have--since the main goal with him is to express "DON'T GET NEAR TIBBERS" or at least turn him into a primary focus for damage (for the same reason bruisers like Darius are--they're up-close and dangerous), and having a portion of his damage output rely on people attacking him would instead tell players "Dude just ignore Tibbers he's not doing much." The benefit of the aura is that it helps turn Tibbers into a no-zone, which helps keep enemies at bay (and reward them for finding away around her big, fiery friend). Does that makes sense to you?

(Also, I'm very wary about talking about my redesigns in this thread, as it tends to quickly turn conversations to "I haven't read about how you yourself don't even want these changes to take place in LoL, but would like to work on a cooler sequel, but I see that you want to change this champion I like and that's wrong to me!" and that's not healthy for good, constructive back-and-forth--even though that's exactly what we're doing right now, haha. If you have any sort of playstyles or character archetypes/elements of play that Riot hasn't quite touched on, or champions you think they could've been more true to, feel free to tell me and I'll bring up a redesign or OC and we can discuss like we're doing right now.

Other people bring up some valid points that I overlook, and that's really good for what I'm trying to do!)

For other people in this thread: What kind of champions do you think Riot could've been a bit more creative with (I, for example, think they could've made Heimerdinger more reliant on machines and reinvent the battlefield instead of just having a turret and some explosives--which are better captured by and more characteristic of Ziggs), and what do you think would be their full potential?


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

12-20-2012

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
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EPIC MOUNTING ABILITY EPIC WOLF EPICNIGHTELF WITH RANGE SUCH AS CROSSBOW OR BOW CHICK WHILE DUALING WIELDING EPIC BLADES ON HER BACK WHEN IN MELEE/NOTONWOLF.

You know what to do dude, do it.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyhawke View Post
No worries man, I'm just informing you guys that the perception could be there. It was all mostly in jest though--that's why I was surprised at the insta downvotes (especially considering the reference was at least somewhat clever). If you say that's the case I believe you 100%. I'm glad to see that you seem less abrasive now then you were a few months ago, posting in the player concepts forum. Good luck with your game design program.
Thanks dude - I hope that you just understand there are alot of unanswered questions or stuff that Riot could give an explanation for.

Please note that Morello has actually, indirectly agreed with us in the past with a previous post he made on a very old thread of mine (like 7 months ago I believe)

Ironically he agrees and even approves that the changes we ask for would be more fitting for a sequel, I'd love you to stick around/keep checking this every now and then, with a little luck I'll have that part uploaded in the 2nd post of mine in this thread (the FAQ comment) and with a little luck we'll have a red here soon aswell.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

12-20-2012

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Originally Posted by BrambleBlast View Post
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Thanks man.

Making the FAQ atm.


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rabidzombie2015

Senior Member

12-22-2012

Good read


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FrontlinerDelta

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Senior Member

12-23-2012

I think I agree overall but some of your examples could use better explanation imo. I don't really see why brand's E is good and his W is not? I understand Q is just a skillshot version of annie's Q (ie generic) and the stun doesn't make any sense thematically.

But I could see a huge column of flame being good for a "set the world on fire" kind of guy.

Also what other champions would you consider lacking thematically? Most seem to fit pretty well imo just off the top of my head. Like Lux (Positive, cheery light mage and her ult is a rainbow), Tryndamere, Olaf, Mordekaiser, etc. Obviously only a few examples but I can't really think of any right away that don't fit their kit. Maybe some of the bruisers/tanks?