Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? - Theming in LoL - @IronStylus, @FeralPony

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BestBilbo

Senior Member

12-19-2012

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Originally Posted by BrambleBlast View Post
bumpity
Thank you - very much appreciated.

This is me bumping the thread aswell, going to sleep soon so I'll be off.

I'll be uploading a large chunk of the 'FAQ' tomorrow - concercing tying 'realism' to gaming.

For now - the first post of page two of this thread ItemsGuy has come up with a little explanation himself.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

12-19-2012

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Originally Posted by Daemon View Post
I've said this before, but there is one thing Riot has yet to do thematically: make a champion with a "pet" that really matters. Orianna just throws her ball around. Pix, Lulu's fairy, does a bit more, but he still feels like something that is just...there.
I agree with you on this (although the examples of it being done in the past--such as lone druid and that wolf guy from DotA/2--are fairly bland), although one of the reasons it *might* not work in LoL is that it may introduce an element of micromanagement (wherein you'd have to both play the champion and the pet, sometimes even using them for different things). However, I think I have a kit that touches on it a bit (don't mind that it's a redesign--I'll get to those later). Would you enjoy playing something like this, if it were, say, introduced on a different champion? What would you look for in that kind of champion?

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I am talking about a being that is constantly tagging along with the champion, that speaks, jokes and taunts alongside the champion, and aids the champion and perhaps can be broken free from the champion's control through an ability like Help, Pix! or maybe an ultimate like Viktor's that is controllable and the champion gains enhanced abilities until the ult ends.
Ah, I see what you mean--like a pet that's more integral to the champion as both a character and part of the kit! This would certainly help bring more life to the game--beyond just pressing buttons and scoring kills.

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My idea was for a young inventor girl with psionic abilities that is around Ezreal's age and her suit of armor-like automaton possessed by the spirit of her father who was killed. While she can control things with her mind (the brains), her father serves as the brawn of their team. If she targets the automaton with her abilities, then he is "activated" and you click again where you want the ability to be executed. After it is done, he returns to your side. The ult makes them work together in some way.
Hmm...Under the context of assuming that this all comes together to fit a certain, readable theme (I believe "brains and brawn, in this case?), the only problems I can see with something like this is a greater focus on technical skill (by having a middleman for your actions, instead of it being one-to-one), which sacrifices readability and may create a champion whose flexibility is overwhelmed by clutter. Something on a smaller scale--such as, say, having the "brawn" relegated to a single ability (say, summoning it with your ult, and controlling it like a Shaco clone) and having it act as a buffer to you as you cast spells ("brawn" perhaps having a movespeed debuff on its autoattack), could work--or like the previous example, the "brain" could be all about controlling this bigger unit (meaning if you kill the smaller unit, you kill the big one as well), while the kit revolves around "brawn's" actions.

What's your opinion on that? There are a wide variety of possible champions (and I know this kind of champ has been in demand for a while), and there should be a little something for everybody! Everyone should have at least one champ they feel connected to, like this--a champ they can call their favorite not for how they can allow them to win or what abilities they have, but what they are.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

12-19-2012

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Originally Posted by Crownface View Post
There are still no black champions.
While I certainly do agree that there could be more variety among many champions in multiple regards, race/ethnicity isn't quite what we're aiming for here! (Also--I do believe Karma's black, although that's only one champion out of 109)


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Crownface

Senior Member

12-19-2012

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
While I certainly do agree that there could be more variety among many champions in multiple regards, race/ethnicity isn't quite what we're aiming for here! (Also--I do believe Karma's black, although that's only one champion out of 109)
Her name is Karma, she's meant to be Indian.

It was kind of a joke post, but it's also true, and it's more than a little weird that one doesn't exist yet. You could have a bunch of amorphous blob creatures and still have a diverse roster, I'm not saying it's the biggest problem, just one of the several that exist. The thing is, League isn't comprised of a bunch of blobs, it's mostly humans/humanoids, and it would be nice to see more diversity within that group.


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CoolHandJack

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Interesting read, and I agree on some points and not on others. The main point I don't agree on, is that you make it sound like whatever the theme of a character is that the character has to live up to every cliche of that theme. So for someone like Heimer, I agree his turrets are so iconic they should be more involved with his kit and it thematically fits. For someone like Maokai, his kit works fine for a big angry walking tree and stuffing in things just to fit a nature theme would probably not do anything to improve him as a champion or character.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

12-19-2012

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Originally Posted by Crownface View Post
Her name is Karma, she's meant to be Indian.

It was kind of a joke post, but it's also true, and it's more than a little weird that one doesn't exist yet. You could have a bunch of amorphous blob creatures and still have a diverse roster, I'm not saying it's the biggest problem, just one of the several that exist. The thing is, League isn't comprised of a bunch of blobs, it's mostly humans/humanoids, and it would be nice to see more diversity within that group.
Ah, tch, that makes more sense.

But yeah, while it's not like an "oh I'm offended" thing, variety will always spice things up! Certainly, there's no need to make black champs "just because we need a black champ," but if that sort of stuff fits with the color scheme and stuff (which is more of a design decision than an "equality/PC" one), that would certainly help the game come alive a bit more. Variety, man! It's one of my favorite things!


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Skyhawke

Senior Member

12-19-2012

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Both are very important - his theme and playstyle is about responding and playing/selecting his card after he has analyzed the current situation of the game.

"Never lost a fair game... or played one." - Twisted Fate

TF's theme and playstyle match ALOT - He analyzes a situation and then plays his hand, hence 'Pick A Card' is such a cool ability : P

He basically turns stuff into his favour, looking at the opponent's hand before actually doing something.

Concerning the downvote part:

You, Capt Marvelous and 'TheDreamer' have contributed nothing to the dicussion, atleast you tried a bit where you mention it is a good topic but if you continue posting meaningless stuff it's only logical people to not take you seriously anymore.

That said, I'm not saying me and ItemsGuy haven't downvoted 'meaningless stuff' - I can assure you - we did. Only because you are trying to shut down our discussion just for the sake of shutting it down, we don't think that's entirely fair - though we haven't made smurfs to do so, -2 for all people just trying to pop in me unconstructive or randomly spewing out things.
Good thoughts--I guess things like his AoE spell and his passive seem a bit unthematic to me. I've replied in previous threads of yours with "meaningful stuff" and gone unanswered. I believe asking why you have to keep bringing up the same ideas in new threads is "meaningful" and to be absolutely honest it does seem that you, ItemsGuy, and LightningAcorns are all the same person or functioning as one entity--you even have oddly similar names.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by PWNJuiCeSuCKa View Post
Interesting read, and I agree on some points and not on others. The main point I don't agree on, is that you make it sound like whatever the theme of a character is that the character has to live up to every cliche of that theme. So for someone like Heimer, I agree his turrets are so iconic they should be more involved with his kit and it thematically fits. For someone like Maokai, his kit works fine for a big angry walking tree and stuffing in things just to fit a nature theme would probably not do anything to improve him as a champion or character.
I'm going to have to disagree with you here--I'm not just saying all this because it's just something I want to say, this sort of readability and ability to connect what a champion *is* and what a champion *does* to a central theme is a huge part of LoL's readability. Maokai's theming is "tree"--that's the first thing people notice when they see him. The first impression is the most important, and thus that's where most of a champion's information should come from! The whole "brought to life by stray magic" acts to give context to Maokai--why does he exist? Why is he fighting in the League?--but I would never go as far as to say that it's something that would define how he plays (since it's not really something the player can grasp without reading the lore--which, if you use this logic, means that it would be okay if kits were designed so you had to read all 109 short stories to understand champions, creating a large barrier between newer players and a fundamental knowledge of the game--and even then, it's quite vague and not as characteristic as "(angry) tree").

If anything, using "playing by the lore" here as an example, Maokai wouldn't play so much as a "magic tree" as a tree that has been back to life but wants to go back to being a tree--meaning that he'd be a lot less mobile, a lot more territorial, and would be focused around punishing people for getting near him (characterizing him as an "angry" tree, instead of Just A Tree, or, on the other side of the spectrum, a "benevolent/healing" tree).

Even if we break it down in terms of abilities, most of his abilities don't make sense in terms of what this huge stump grump is doing (turning into green stuff and teleporting to an enemy, shooting magic forward in a straight line by smashing the ground) or are completely unreadable on top of that (you wouldn't know what his ult did or how it worked or why he uses it just by seeing it happen--this places burden of knowledge on the player, which is undesirable at best and toxic to an understanding of the game at worst). His abilities don't really "stick" to anything in the player's mind--they're just functions tied to abilities, that Maokai can use to fulfill his role. While all of his abilities fall into place to allow him to become part tank, part support, and arguably part mage (with his crowd control and peels, his free wards and damage mitigation, and the fact that all of these can be used to deal bursts of magic damage), they don't really lend themselves to any sort of defined and characteristic mindset (like "I'm a tree >:C"), and are more of a bare-bones approach to how a champion should be designed.

Does this make sense? I can clarify if anything sounds awkward or poorly-worded~


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

12-19-2012

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Originally Posted by Skyhawke View Post
Good thoughts--I guess things like his AoE spell and his passive seem a bit unthematic to me. I've replied in previous threads of yours with "meaningful stuff" and gone unanswered. I believe asking why you have to keep bringing up the same ideas in new threads is "meaningful" and to be absolutely honest it does seem that you, ItemsGuy, and LightningAcorns are all the same person or functioning as one entity--you even have oddly similar names.
I'm sorry that you have a hard time believing that more than one person can agree on something that you personally don't subscribe to. :/

I think I can explain Wild Cards and his Innate, though--the Wild Cards ability itself is more of something that's iconic to "card-throwing" characters, such as Gambit (and various stage performers that specialize in throwing cards long-distances with great accuracy and to devastating effects), and makes sense as a viewer if you just see him do it (as opposed to watching, say, a half-snake lady creating poofs on the ground and throwing green things, or a dude with a hammer making a blue line appear). The gold-boosting passive is more relevant to his theming specifically about "cheating" at cards, as it allows his team to have an additional "unfair" advantage (like being able to "cheat" and remove Fog of War temporarily--looking at the opponent's hand) in terms of money--which is also relevant to the whole "cheating at cards" thing, considering it is pretty much always done with the intention of walking away with a fair amount of money.

His whole team contributes to him being a cheater, and that's why people that play him pick him over any other vague "deal a lot of burst/AoE magic damage just because" mages!

(Also, just to put you at ease, I could put you in a Skype call with me and Peri--and I'm sure you can track down anyone else that agrees with us and demand to talk to them too, haha.)


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Skyhawke

Senior Member

12-19-2012

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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
I'm sorry that you have a hard time believing that more than one person can agree on something that you personally don't subscribe to. :/

I think I can explain Wild Cards and his Innate, though--the Wild Cards ability itself is more of something that's iconic to "card-throwing" characters, such as Gambit (and various stage performers that specialize in throwing cards long-distances with great accuracy and to devastating effects), and makes sense as a viewer if you just see him do it (as opposed to watching, say, a half-snake lady creating poofs on the ground and throwing green things, or a dude with a hammer making a blue line appear). The gold-boosting passive is more relevant to his theming specifically about "cheating" at cards, as it allows his team to have an additional "unfair" advantage (like being able to "cheat" and remove Fog of War temporarily--looking at the opponent's hand) in terms of money--which is also relevant to the whole "cheating at cards" thing, considering it is pretty much always done with the intention of walking away with a fair amount of money.

His whole team contributes to him being a cheater, and that's why people that play him pick him over any other vague "deal a lot of burst/AoE magic damage just because" mages!

(Also, just to put you at ease, I could put you in a Skype call with me and Bilbo--and I'm sure you can track down anyone else that agrees with us and demand to talk to them too, haha.)
No worries man, I'm just informing you guys that the perception could be there. It was all mostly in jest though--that's why I was surprised at the insta downvotes (especially considering the reference was at least somewhat clever). If you say that's the case I believe you 100%. I'm glad to see that you seem less abrasive now then you were a few months ago, posting in the player concepts forum. Good luck with your game design program.