Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? - Theming in LoL - @IronStylus, @FeralPony

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by IS1d0cb1517abd96 View Post
Ok I started reading random champions you redesign and you mostly redesign for sake of redesigning or completely miss the point. I how feeling like you have no idea about those champions. I like you reasoning but when you apply it to champions who really has problems. In my opinion you wasted a lot of time for unnecessary redesigns. No wonder Riot doesn't post here. You are not as smart as you think. Not all your points are worth reading. If you are doing it as hobby, go ahead, but don't expect someone will make LoL2 basing on this. Also don't force your opinions on others.
All you've said here is 'if it ain't broke don't fix it'.

Zyra is picked because she is a typical teamfighting burst mage - not because she is the ultimate nature mage.

If you are a good Brand player you aren't a true master of fire - it means you can pop your abilities in a specific rapid order, there's nothing fire'ish about him apart from the minor aspects we've mentioned.

I could go on and on but it seems like we've stepped on your toes because we've redesigned champions that you like yet you do not seem to get the concepts and themes of these champions could greatly be improved in terms of counterplay, readability, theming and depth.

I'm sorry to see you leave like this.

Funfact: IronStylus has actually left a comment concerning this very thread, he said he likes our analysis and finds it very interesting, on top of that he finds the Redesigns very creative.

As he is not a champion designer I think we can both agree his opinion it's not as valuable compared to let's say - if Morello said this, funny enough we even have a lot of statements where Riot including morello indirectly approves of our design-philosophy.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamoecw View Post
you tried something that you didn't want, or do you need a dictionary? see how what i said reflected what you said? i basically said you tried and failed with that one regard.
ItemsGuy did this with Redesigns where he could do it and most importantly: where it was absolutely nessecary.

Quote:
so you admit you failed in that regard?
If something isn't possible you can't fail at it either. ItemsGuy fixed where it could be fixed. That's all.

Quote:
and brand's current skill set isn't? basically all that was done is remove the stun, and make it easier for the spells to jump to nearby enemies.
Redesign Brand is all about spreading your fire, keeping your targets burned for maximum damage output - he's redesigned to a mage that is readable, makes sense and has a pushed playstyule that fits his theme.

Quote:
how did you stop the mashing of buttons? as someone caught ablaze will run if they can't handle brand unloading everything, which results in a chase, which means brand will have to unload everything ASAP, hence button mashing, though without a stun he will have a harder time of it.
My bad - to clarify: he fixed mashing of buttons that barely require thinking or skill.

Every champion will always have 4 to 8 abilities so you could consider it always button-mashing. itemsguy tried to fix buttonmashing on designs where it hardly adds anything to the depth of the champions.

For example, current Skarner Q, Hecarim Q.

Quote:
'depending on match up' a very important phrase.

he may have a hard time, but orianna is dependant on skill shots, and thus if he focuses on dodging while going for cs he won't be shut out completely. he also has a built in teleport, making him better able to gank other lanes to help make up for it.

unless you have someway of dealing with the harass, winning the poke battle.
All you've said here confirms the amount of options you have - thank you for contributing to my argument.

Quote:
i think you mean that if you don't give enough space as vlad... how you said it means that if you are too far away they can kill you, which would mean they should kill you from the base, which makes no sense.
Assasins or aggressive high mobility champions like Riven need space to close in on you, if you don't give them that space they are pretty much forced to stay passive - they can't capitalize on their strengths.

I meant that as vlad you can make sure they'll push the lane - wich means you are close to hugging your turret, you don't give them space to close in on you and screw you over.

Did I clarify ?

Quote:
i think it is completely valid to state that the the assessment has him hard counter everyone, and not just specific champs, which you have yet to come up with a single champ that exists that does such. also note that he is a ranged champ, which means that if you do alloy him to zone you while the minion wave is pushed to the turret, then he can poke the turret down. the counter of which is ganks, which is countered by wards. given that he zones out his opponent easily, he should have the gold to afford the wards, which makes him a bit too strong.
Could you clarify what you were trying to say here - I didn't get it.

Quote:
yes it is a counter play, but take into consideration that you are not really causing him problems, as after the laning phase there is the teamfight phase, which he is also really good at. so by staying back for enough to keep him from killing you you are weak for the team fight, and he is strong. in the end it is a pretty poor counterplay to rely on, and since that is designed counterplay, a poor design.
Only the sentence I put in bold made sense - Taric Redesign has more depth while offering more counterplay. That's cool right. With the Redesign Taric would probably maintain a good laning phase and strong teamfighting.

Also to come back at the sentence put in bold: designed counterplay is bad ? That's new. Varus should get a new ultimate as you can prevent the ult from spreading by walking away from your allies if you are effected.

Katarina should get a new ult as it's interruptable - these are intentional decisions/mechanics, nothing wrong about that.

Quote:
'and focus on last hitting minions for cs to keep yourself from getting completely shut down. when the gank happens join in and punish him for sticking his neck out so far.' a common quote, which is why strong ranged champs are squishy, to make ganks easier against them, and which is why in tournaments you'll see bullies using wards to good effect. you'll also note that bullies tie up the jungler for extended periods of time, going for ganks that do not happen due to ward coverage, resulting in 2 under fed champs when teamfight starts. it puts the enemy on the defensive from the start, which is why being a bully is ultimately a good thing, and generally why innate bullies tend not to have the best teamfight presence, and those that do are used frequently before they are nerfed.
Not sure what I should make of this - is this an argument against my statement ? It seems you are just more or less confirming what I'm saying.

Quote:
lanes need to be pushed in order to take turrets, TF just adds another ganker in the mix, which means that you aren't removing pushing lanes, just making it more difficult.
Never said TF removes the ability people have to push their lanes, I'm saying TF has strong map presence due to his dedicating 'ganking-kit' where he is encouraged to punish a pushed lane of his opponents.

Quote:
is wandering alone a good thing? generally not, due to the threat of being caught out in the open, though a little jungling is okay, if not then maybe the nocturn redesign isn't that great.
Wandering alone is okay in the right circumstances, it is not playing against a TF or Nocturne as they can immediately jump or be near you.

Nocturne Redesign might look a bit unreliable but it's no different from current TF and TF sees competitive play frequently and is extremely popular at diamond elo.

Quote:
i understand that you want the champs to have more emphasis on theme, but asking yourself why the abilities they currently have work, and then making decisions based of that info is pretty important as well. if the champ is in need of a rework currently, then there are pretty detailed topics going over why they need the rework, which you can use to address in your own rework
Agreed. We've done this is our newer thread (a summary of all our threads) - I've provided explanation behind every redesign, I discuss every current flaw of the current state of the champion wether that is depth, readability, counterplay or a flaw in theme.

PS: IronStylus has actually red the thread and has said he find our analysis very interesting and the redesigns we provide very creative. Suit yourself.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

IS1d0cb1517abd96

Senior Member

01-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
All you've said here is 'if it ain't broke don't fix it'.
I didn't. I said mostly they already fit their theme and as you yourself said in some redesign, you are nit-picking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Zyra is picked because she is a typical teamfighting burst mage - not because she is the ultimate nature mage.
Nope. I play her because she has plants. I like her design. She is played in unique way that no other champion is. I saw some amazing things done by good Zyra. If someone picks her to just smash buttons then he is bad with her. Actually Zyra has to be played more careful and thoughtful than most of others mage champions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
If you are a good Brand player you aren't a true master of fire - it means you can pop your abilities in a specific rapid order, there's nothing fire'ish about him apart from the minor aspects we've mentioned.
Isn't it like, the point of being good with the champion? Any champion? And how the hell Brand isn't fire'ish when he is freaking burning god? You say when looking at champion splash art I should know exactly what he is like and what he can do. So I look at burning monster so I think "he can throw fire!" Yes he can. "He can summon fire" Yes he can. "he can set others on fire" Yes he can. So really, have his theming isn't about fire? Also you get one thing wrong. His ulti doesn't need other ability to be use first to work and it never needed. It was that if you hit enemy that is ablaze, his ultimate will jump out faster than normal as it's projectile was slow. They changed it so now it prioritize champions if you hit enemy ablaze. And really where you get that spreading fire theme from? He looks and is the fire god. He just burns everything. Also since when throwing or summoning a pillar of fire is not spreading it? Every skill applies passive, making enemy ablaze thus setting them on fire. Brand is already making exactly what you want him to do.

Quote:
I could go on and on but it seems like we've stepped on your toes because we've redesigned champions that you like yet you do not seem to get the concepts and themes of these champions could greatly be improved in terms of counterplay, readability, theming and depth.
I don't really. I'm pissed that you didn't get what they theme actually is. You are so hypocritical in some of your redesigns. Actually you completely ignore the lore which is the one of main things that build champions theme and concept. You get a lot information about champions personality etc. from it and you say it's irrelevant. They were creating them with their lore in mind so you can't ignore it while judging them. A lot of champions have really strong theme and they fit into it but you still redesign them anyway showing you are either changing for sake for changes or don't get them at all.

The way you redesign fits more into RPG where you have players and MG to play it out rather than computer game. You need to keep in mind that the more things you try to bring in, the harder it's to balance game play or even make them work in the game. Riot is trying to make game with both a lot of options but still easy to understand. So far they do good job on it. Your suggestion are sometimes so unbalanced and even more random than original that I'm baffled that you dare to say that I'm the one who don't see that their theme could be better.

Quote:
Funfact: IronStylus has actually left a comment concerning this very thread, he said he likes our analysis and finds it very interesting, on top of that he finds the Redesigns very creative.
Exactly. He said it's interesting and creative. He never said it's good or could be use if any of champions indeed were redesigned. Also I didn't say your redesigns are bad. I said they usually miss the point of the champions. You shows that you don't really get them and yet you try to tell me you know how they supposed to feel better than me.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

jamoecw

Member

01-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Redesign Brand is all about spreading your fire, keeping your targets burned for maximum damage output - he's redesigned to a mage that is readable, makes sense and has a pushed playstyule that fits his theme.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redesigned brand
Innate: Blaze (unchanged)
Q: Enkindle
-Brand causes all instances of Blaze around him to intensify, dealing X + (X% AP) magic damage to all enemy units affected by Blaze and reducing their MR by X. MR reduction lasts for 7 seconds and stacks up to 3 times. If Enkindle is used again within 6 seconds, its mana cost doubles.
W: Wildfire
-Brand ignites the ground, creating a line of fire after 1 second that deals X + (X% AP) magic damage per second and lasts for 3 seconds. If an enemy affected by blaze walks into Widlfire’s AoE, they will trail Wildfire’s effect behind them for 4 seconds. Refreshes duration as long as the affected unit is standing in the original Wildfire’s AoE.
E: Conflagration
-Brand sparks a growing flame on the enemy that deals X + (X% AP) magic damage every second for 3 seconds, and spreads to nearby enemies every 1.5 seconds. If target is already ablaze, Conflagration immediately spreads to nearby enemies and does an additional initial X + (X% AP) magic damage. Conflagration can spread back to its initial target.
R: Pyroclasm
-Brand unleashes a devastating torrent of fire to a target that will bounce between enemies, dealing X + (X% AP) magic damage each time it bounces. Only affects targets that are ablaze. Bounces up to 4 times for a total of 5 hits, and can hit the same enemy up to 3 times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lol wiki on brand
Blaze

Brand's spells light his targets ablaze, dealing 2% of their maximum health as magic damage per second for 4 seconds, for a total of 8%. Monsters take a maximum of 80 damage per second from Blaze.

Sear
ACTIVE: Brand launches a fireball forward that deals magic damage to the first enemy it hits. If the target is ablaze, the target will be stunned for 2 seconds.

Pillar of Flame
ACTIVE: After a short delay, Brand blasts a target area, dealing magic damage to enemy units within the area. Units that are ablaze take an additional 25% damage.

Conflagration
ACTIVE: Brand conjures an instant blast at his target, dealing magic damage to it. If the target is ablaze, the conflagration will also spread to nearby enemies.

Pyroclasm
ACTIVE: Brand unleashes a devastating torrent of fire to a target that will bounce between enemies, dealing damage each time it bounces. If a target is ablaze, Pyroclasm's next bounce will prioritize champions. It will bounce up to four times for a total of five hits, and can hit the same enemy up to three times.
passive is the same, assuming that consuming the passive works the same as well.
Q is changed from a skill shot to an AoE that only works by consuming passive.
W is and AoE spell with a 1 sec delay, the redesign one is a 3-7 sec AoD and DoT, and the original is an instant damage spell.
E is a single targeted ability, the redesign one spreads to nearby enemies 2-3 times in a 3 sec time frame, while the original spreads 0-1 times instantly.
R is a single target nuke that can bounce to nearby enemies, the redesign one only effects those that are ablaze (it states it can hit the same target multiple times, if it consumes passive on hit like original then you have to land W or E while R is bouncing to another target), while the original doesn't need the target to be ablaze.

thus the redesign as written is very similar, with differences being an increased emphasis on AoD and spreading the passive, and the removal of the skill shot and stun in favor of an auto target spell. these changes increase his zoning ability which were strong to begin with, although it seems to sacrifice nuke potential due to the fact that he can't stun a target in his AoD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
My bad - to clarify: he fixed mashing of buttons that barely require thinking or skill.

Every champion will always have 4 to 8 abilities so you could consider it always button-mashing. itemsguy tried to fix buttonmashing on designs where it hardly adds anything to the depth of the champions.

For example, current Skarner Q, Hecarim Q.
by removing his skill shot you have removed the one ability which relied on mechanical skill, in favor for an auto target AoE spell, thus you could rapidly tap the button waiting for the conditions to align allowing the skill to be used, ie. chasing in hopes of using heimi's rockets. generally speaking you want to increase damage dealt, which 2 of the abilities can't be used unless 1 of the other 2 is used, means that options in starting the combo is reduced to in half, and continuing the combo results in the other ability being used 3rd, the thinking aspect of choosing which spells to use in which order are reduced considerably. as the ult needs the target set ablaze 3 times in order to get it to full effect, and there are only 2 spells that do such, you won't use Q in a ult combo, either because the ult does too little damage relative to the Q (making it useless), or too much (so that you would always want to get the ult to bounce back).



Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
All you've said here confirms the amount of options you have - thank you for contributing to my argument.



Assasins or aggressive high mobility champions like Riven need space to close in on you, if you don't give them that space they are pretty much forced to stay passive - they can't capitalize on their strengths.

I meant that as vlad you can make sure they'll push the lane - wich means you are close to hugging your turret, you don't give them space to close in on you and screw you over.

Did I clarify ?
yes, you meant pushing too far or over extending. though by mid game allowing yourself to be pushed back to tower the whole time against an aggressive high mobility champ means your going to get dove on quite frequently, and hard. pooling is the counter to such dives, which increases the duration the melee champs have to stay under turret when they dive you (waiting for pool to wear off), brand isn't a melee champ, allowing him to siege you would be a mistake, as all he would have to do is throw down some AoD under your turret and you will have to run from under your turret until W or E has worn off, unless you are some one with an ability to counter dives, like vlad.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Could you clarify what you were trying to say here - I didn't get it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redesign
Counterplay: Against Brand, primarily involves either not catching on fire (by ambushing Brand and not giving him a chance to set your team ablaze), or cutting his fire's effectiveness as much as possible by not sticking too close together as a team and isolating allies hit by Conflagration until they cool off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiki
When playing against Brand, remember that he is a combo-based champion. Interrupting his cast flow is detrimental to his damage output.
Brand is very combo dependent, so stuns and silences can be very effective counters during team fights.
When he is at a distance, Sear is easy to dodge, but be careful about getting near him in a fight if you are squishy.
Be careful about facing Brand 1v1 or 2v1 (with Brand being the one). Brand's 1v1 damage output is still great despite having AoE spells, he has a 2 second stun from Sear while the target is Blaze. 2v1 would be even worse after he hits level 6, as his ultimate will be able to do tremendous damage to you and your teammate.
When fighting against Brand in a team fight, try not to stick close to your teammates. Brand's AoEs spells are rather small but very deadly.
When Blaze is applied to you, be very careful about getting within Brand's range, especially if he can hit you with Sear, as this opens you up to a lot of burst damage.
During laning, be careful about being on the wrong side of your minions when against Brand. With his full combo, he can deal a large amount of damage while stunning you to prevent retaliation.
Your team should scatter to avoid taking massive AoE damage from Brand, especially after he casts Pyroclasm.
Pyroclasm does not focus champions unless applied with Blaze, so try to pass it off onto a group of minions or jungle monsters.
A Banshee's Veil is a great item to counter him. While it won't completely negate the damage Brand does, it will make it harder for him to combo off properly.
notice the range of counters listed, quite a bit of which involves avoiding the one ability which was removed. thus if your counterplay section is at all applicable, you only have one option: get zoned. as specifics are not listed in the descriptions, these little sections are pretty important for figuring out the general balance the designer is aiming for, which says that he zones out everyone, at the range of his spells, which if is like existing brand's range means that he will be able to zone out pretty much everyone. many people aren't happy with darius due to the fact that he zones any melee dependent champion, and a few ranged as well. brand's redesign basically says that he can zone any one that gets with in his spell range just like darius can, only that his spell range is far, instead of melee ranged, and that unlike darius he has excellent teamfight presence.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Only the sentence I put in bold made sense - Taric Redesign has more depth while offering more counterplay. That's cool right. With the Redesign Taric would probably maintain a good laning phase and strong teamfighting.

Also to come back at the sentence put in bold: designed counterplay is bad ? That's new. Varus should get a new ultimate as you can prevent the ult from spreading by walking away from your allies if you are effected.

Katarina should get a new ult as it's interruptable - these are intentional decisions/mechanics, nothing wrong about that.
who said counterplay was bad? i said that the counterplay presented is bad.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Not sure what I should make of this - is this an argument against my statement ? It seems you are just more or less confirming what I'm saying.
it is stating why the reworks aren't that great: redesigning champions into something that will get nerfed by design.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Never said TF removes the ability people have to push their lanes, I'm saying TF has strong map presence due to his dedicating 'ganking-kit' where he is encouraged to punish a pushed lane of his opponents.
one of your stated counter plays was to not push lanes, which i replied that one needs to push lanes in order to take turrets. since taking turrets is how you win the game, simply using the counterplay: don't push lanes is not viable by itself, thus against TF you will do more than just not push lanes, you will prepare against him ganking you. so as it pertains the the discussion on brand's redesigned counterplay, which states that getting zoned prevents you from dying, pushing against a team with TF on it does not mean that you will die, it means that you might get ganked. in fact even if you don't push lane you might get ganked, TF's gank kit is counterplayed by countering ganking, not by preventing yourself from taking steps to take tower.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Wandering alone is okay in the right circumstances, it is not playing against a TF or Nocturne as they can immediately jump or be near you.

Nocturne Redesign might look a bit unreliable but it's no different from current TF and TF sees competitive play frequently and is extremely popular at diamond elo.



Agreed. We've done this is our newer thread (a summary of all our threads) - I've provided explanation behind every redesign, I discuss every current flaw of the current state of the champion wether that is depth, readability, counterplay or a flaw in theme.

PS: IronStylus has actually red the thread and has said he find our analysis very interesting and the redesigns we provide very creative. Suit yourself.
i agree that the OP was interesting, or else i would have moved on, and the redesigns are in fact creative. however i feel that the redesigns that i read were not very well thought out, and maybe might be better with more input to help refine the designs.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-21-2013

Thanks for these responses dudes, I'll respond to both of you today.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by IS1d0cb1517abd96 View Post
In some redesigns, you are nit-picking.
True - the Nitpick-Redesigns are champions that currently live up to their theme pretty well - atleast, way more than all the others - yet that doesn't mean their themes can't be pushed even further, wich enriches the expierence of playing the champion while improving on readability as you are making the character more like how you expect the character to act.

Also - while it is true all of the Redesigns focus on theming primarely, lack of thematic aspects are not the only flaws the kit might be having.

Redesign Olaf would be a good example, he very much plays like a berserker, the Redesign lays an emphasis on that improving on readability aswell as enriching the experience as a character, as the change makes him more characteristic.

Though, theming was far from the biggest issue here, the bigger issue would be counterplay as currently there is literally NOTHING you can do to a ghost ulting Olaf.

Quote:
I said mostly they already fit their theme
Like Ezreal ? Does he truly play like the ultimate explorer ? The only ability that kind of lives up to his theme as 'explorer' is his Arcane shift, wich pretty much waters the expierence down as an ultimate explorer - as currently having Arcane Shift how it works now pretty much translates Ezreal to 'Carry with skillshots and high mobility' rather than 'Carry that is an explorer.'

If you don't get that Ezreal could be more of an Explorer (wich he is in the Redesign) - if you don't get his current kit waters the experience down of being the ultimate explorer, I doubt if I should continue this discussion unless you have a solid argument of how Ezreal fits his theme as explorer better with his current kit compared to the Ezreal Redesign.

Similar like Leblanc; -Leblanc, the Deciever.

Ask yourself - is she more known for her Q + R combo or is she known for being the ultimate deciever, someone that tricks you and acts with the art of surprise ?
Exactly - her Q + R combo, hence the well-known QQ such as 'omg wtf noob champ Q + R burst damage no skill' and so forth.

In our opinion, pretty sad for a champion to be known for a straightforward spellcombo instead of being known as the ultimate deciever (better themed and interesting playstyle) that she could have been. *Sigh*- the Monkey King makes more decieving plays and he's a freakin' monkey, not 'the Deciever'.

If you don't get Leblanc can't be more of a Deciever - if you don't get her current kit waters the expierence of being the ultimate Deciever, I doubt if I should continue this discussion unless you have a solid argument of how Leblanc fits her theme as Deciever better with her current kit compared to Leblanc Redesign.

Regardless of the viability of current Leblanc or Ezreal ('if it aint broke don't fix it' will backfire in the long run) - it doesn't matter, they could both be better champions in terms of theming, improving on readability and counterplay along the way.
I hope you get our point now - though most likely you aren't convinced. However, if you are - I hope you are manly enough to admit that all of these themes could be pushed in terms of kit, meaning the theme completely reflects in playstyle/abilities aswell.

If you come up with arguments such as 'the changes you make are OP' - this is an entirely different point you would be making, wich is fine, though I hope you'll be manly enough to admit that in fact themes could be pushed in terms of kit especially.

Quote:
Nope. I play her because she has plants. I like her design. She is played in unique way that no other champion is. I saw some amazing things done by good Zyra. If someone picks her to just smash buttons then he is bad with her. Actually Zyra has to be played more careful and thoughtful than most of others mage champions.
Sorry let me clarify, the statement you quoted of mine is subjective, it's presented as an opinion and therefore is entirely subjective, as every has an opinion of their own.
I'll adjust my statement now:

'Zyra's kit or Zyra's strength does not come from her plants primarely. She is a competitive pick because she really excells at teamfighting, she excells at this because of her ultimate and snare ability in the first place, the plants are a nice extra - a nice addition to her kit but it is not what here kit is about primarely, her plants is not her primary strenght'

Ask a pro why they picked Zyra, all you'll get is 'CAUSE HER TEAMFIGHTING BRO, THAT ULT AND SNARE', you'll never here a dude 'CAUSE HER PLANTS BRO', sure they might mention her plants but it comes on 2nd or even 3rd place, she isn't primarely designed to wreck balls with her plants - it's an extra.

Now - it's completely fine that you like her plants and that you like her design, I hope you do realize that she's not 'all about the plants', her plants are a nice addiotion or extra to her kit but it isn't what she primarely is about, hence why I say she's more of a generic mage in a nature skin rather than the Nature Mage that actually plays like the ultimate Nature mage.

If you don't get that Zyra could be more of a Nature Mage (wich she is in the Redesign) - if you don't get her current kit waters the expierence down of playing the ultimate nature mage, then I'm not sure if I should continue this discussion unless you have a solid argument of how Zyra currently plays more like a Nature Mage compared to Redesign Zyra.

Goodluck.

Quote:
How the hell Brand isn't fire'ish when he is freaking burning god? You say when looking at champion splash art I should know exactly what he is like and what he can do. So I look at burning monster so I think "he can throw fire!" Yes he can. "He can summon fire" Yes he can. "he can set others on fire" Yes he can. So really, have his theming isn't about fire?
What you are doing here would fit this statement:

'If you are going to drop a comment here and just say 'No no but Brand already fire playstyle' or 'Zyra already plant playstyle' we will probably just ignore you, we've tried to dismantle these arguments in our thread. The only thing you would be doing is just observating/repeating the fact of how they work currently, which we are very well aware of:

'We are not saying the current kits of the champions are completely themed wrong - we are saying they could live up even more to their theme, creating a more appropriate character and a more dynamic, dedicated, and unique playstyle enriching the player's experience while improving on readability and counterplay.'


We've said how cool Brand is and how some of his abilities contribute to a 'Fire Mage' playstyle, his passive, E and R do that currently, explained in the OP.

Also you get one thing wrong. His ulti doesn't need other ability to be use first to work and it never needed. It was that if you hit enemy that is ablaze, his ultimate will jump out faster than normal as it's projectile was slow. They changed it so now it prioritize champions if you hit enemy ablaze.

We've never said you currently need to hit another ability before you can use your ultimate, we've said it is extremely cool how you are encouraged to do that as not only do you get rewarded for pulling it off, it makes sense themetically and contributes to his 'Fire' theme, as fire burns and spreads. Even if this was a change to make him powerful, it's a change that fits him perfectly.

Quote:
And really where you get that spreading fire theme from? He looks and is the fire god. He just burns everything. Also since when throwing or summoning a pillar of fire is not spreading it? Every skill applies passive, making enemy ablaze thus setting them on fire. Brand is already making exactly what you want him to do.
Spreading fire isn't his theme, 'Fire' is his theme and fire spreads and burns.

For his Q and W: they are generic spells with fire particles, they do not contribute to his theme as a fire mage because they do not behave like fire, watering down the experience of playing the ultimate fire mage.

Sure, Q and W apply the passive, but that doesn't mean his Q and W shouldn't be changed to contribute to his theme or his 'theming playstyle' wich in this case would be the playstyle of literally burning people alive.

His passive, E and R already contribute to the theme/playstyle as they have very characteristic mechanics that captures the element of fire; E burns and spreads if nearby targets are ablaze, R spreads and spreads even faster even if nearby targets are ablaze. Extremely cool and characteristic, appropriate to his theme.

His E and R are charateristic abilities that contribute to his theme/playstyle even without applying the passive, now what
are his Q and W without applying the passive ?

Generic spells - Q is just a skillshot line that does damage on impact, no different Ezreal mystic shot. W is just a circled skillshot that does damage on impact, no different from Zyra Q.
Hence saying 'they also apply the passive !' isn't an argument, it's yet again an observation; we are very well aware of Q and W applying his passive but Q and W could be skills that already fit characteristically in terms of a 'fire theme' as right now they have to justify that abilities with fire particles.

On top of that - looking at his splash art, you wouldn't expect this guy too stun you, that's not readable.
If you do not get Brand could be more like a 'Fire' mage (wich he is in his Redesign), if you do not understand Brand currently waters the experience down of the ultimate fire mage - I doubt if I should continue this discussion unless you come up with a solid argument how Brand currently fits his theme better with his kit compared to Brand Redesign.

Quote:
I'm pissed that you didn't get what they theme actually is.
Are you sure you do ?

A theme is an unifying or dominant idea, a motif. As in, something that underlies the character.
There are themes where the appearence of the character is literally what the theme is, for example, in Alistar's case 'Rampaging Bull'. Or Maokai 'an angry tree'.

Then there's themes that rely on an element of a character's design (such as Graves's gun, or Caitlyn's sniper rifle).

Then there are themes that are a bit abstract, like Sejuani. Her theme isn't 'chick on a boar'.

Her theme is a hybrid of a glacier - represented by the boar and a blizzard -represented by the flail.

She's not ACTUALLY a blizzard and her boar isn't ACTUALLY a glacier
And playing her isn't about having a boar and a flail, because she still has that ice theme - otherwise she would be a 'boar and flail' character, no ice involved.

The boar and flail are there to help 'glacier' and 'blizzard' along as theme to act as a vessel of sorts. Because they are parallels--the nature of Bristle isn't unlike that of a glacier, and the nature of Sejuani's flail isn't unlike that of a whipping blizzard.

If you think I'm wrong here, could you come up with a central theme that Sejuani is supposed to reflect ?

Quote:
You are so hypocritical in some of your redesigns. Actually you completely ignore the lore which is the one of main things that build champions theme and concept. You get a lot information about champions personality etc. from it and you say it's irrelevant. They were creating them with their lore in mind so you can't ignore it while judging them. A lot of champions have really strong theme and they fit into it but you still redesign them anyway showing you are either changing for sake for changes or don't get them at all.
Lore is completely fine if it fits with the theme of the character, it all goes wrong if lore has to justify unlogical flaws in a kit however.

Let me give you some examples:

Ezreal would be a champion who's lore is completely fine, hence there would be no reason to change it if our Ezreal Redesign would become reality.

There is no problem with Ezreal's kit in combination with his lore; the gauntlet he has is very much present in his artwork and would fall under a theme 'that relies on an element of a character's design (such as Graves's shotgun)' 3 out of 4 abilities he has right now has completely to do with his Gauntlet, I'm not saying it is irrelevant as his backstory is cool, I'm saying it is good people aren't forced to read his lore to understand why he does what he does.

You see Ezreal has his gauntlet, so you understand he'll be firing sh*t from that.

Redesign Ezreal's problem isn't focused on fixing problems in terms of readability, he is very readable right now - we felt his theme could be stronger, his playstyle more defined, laying more emphasis on being an explorer.

His lore in combination with his kit ? Completely fine !

This is why lore should never make up unlogical flaws in a kit:

4. Why is using lore as a tool to justify a design a bad sign ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Perifear
Because all it does is justifiy an illogical stupid approach/ability on a champion’s kit, this is can be tied to ‘Burden of Knowledge’ immediately.

Mordekaiser is a VERY good example: You look at his splash art – expected to get crushed by him swinging his mace around crumbling the ground where the giant mace hits..

He turned out to be a rather ‘Mage-ish’ character that barely swings his mace and makes ghosts out of his victims, like what ?

This is Burden of Knowledge and would mean new players are encouraged to read champion lore to understand some abilities ? This is completely anti-fun.

People either have to get destroyed by Mordekaiser X number of times before they understand how he works or read his lore – where you can read the huge guy in the huge bulky armour with a giant mace is more of a licht hat controls a ghost army.

Much like Graves – where you are like: What the heck, what is this smokescreen ability ? A shotgun doesn’t behave like that.
People shouldn't be forced to read Graves’s lore – there it states he has a modified shotgun made for him instead of him having a regular shotgun, seriously ?

Funfact: In this recent thread concercing Sion’s theming a Riot’er ‘IronStylus’ has actually mentioned Mordekaiser the way we did before. Quite he says the same thing after we already said it.
Sadly, the pis-poor argument you've given me is already dismantled in our FAQ. No problem though - I just copied the FAQ answer/question concerning the topic and will explain in more detail then:

You are forced to read Graves's lore before you understand why he has that smoke screen ability, it makes up for the unlogical flaw in his kit, it is of little relevance to his theme as 'Shotgun' or 'the Ultimate Shotgun champion'.

Why are you forced to read the lore ? Because one of the last sentences of his lore is this:
One of his fellow detainees introduced him (Graves) to an eccentric gunsmith who modified a shotgun exactly to his specifications.

See how this contributes nothing to him as a character, you get this dude is a manly badass with a shotgun when you look at his splash art and you read the same thing in his lore before they introduce the small sentence where he has a special shotgun made for him.
It doesn't change his personality, it doesn't change the strength of Graves as a character, the line added where he has a modified shotgun isn't there because it contributes to him as a character, it's only there to justify the unlogical flaw in his kit.

Quote:
The way you redesign fits more into RPG where you have players and MG to play it out rather than computer game. You need to keep in mind that the more things you try to bring in, the harder it's to balance game play or even make them work in the game. Riot is trying to make game with both a lot of options but still easy to understand. So far they do good job on it.
That's the funny part - we are making champions behave like they should behave, wich makes it easier to understand (hence brand acting like a total fire dude rather than a dude that sometimes can stun someone occasionally)
Riot lazy and afraid of making characters as interesting as they can be and in the long run this will backfire, due to oversaturation and boredom. (Check our summary thread or 2nd thread for more detail).

Quote:
Your suggestion are sometimes so unbalanced and even more random than original that I'm baffled that you dare to say that I'm the one who don't see that their theme could be better.
Assuming you now get what theme is ('shotgun' for graves, 'explorer with gauntlet' for ezreal, 'fire dude or pyromaniac' for brand, 'rampaging bull' for alistar, 'angry tree' for maokai) - I'd like to hear the random abilities we have put in Redesigns, as far as we are concerned all the abilities make sense in terms of the theme and appearance of the character. (Obviously the character reflects theme aswell).

As far as balance is concerned, you can always tweak this with numbers, the mechanics aren't broken, the abilities are just more powerful than you are used to while the weaknesses are more drastic aswell. It shapes an environment where every champion has more defined strengths and weaknesses.

Something like 'OMG TRUE DAMAGE ULTIMATE RESET ON KILL' does sound ridiculous. It's not overpowered, it's just extremely powerful. Darius has defined strengths and weaknesses (hence he isn't even popular at higher levels of play and even loses more often than he wins games), this is because his entire kit revolves around you staying close to him, this simply means that if you aren't close to him there is nothing he can do.

He is extremely, specifically dedicated to screwing people over that are close at the cost of utility and mobility. Similar like Twisted Fate sacrifices strength in teamfighting for a specific strength dedicated to Ganking.

Quote:
Exactly. He said it's interesting and creative. He never said it's good or could be use if any of champions indeed were redesigned. Also I didn't say your redesigns are bad. I said they usually miss the point of the champions. You shows that you don't really get them and yet you try to tell me you know how they supposed to feel better than me.
To be precise, he finds our analysis interesting, this doesn't mean he thinks the analysis is 'just creative' therefore 'well-thought but it's not true', he doesn't really want to judge on that because he is not a designer.
If you say you don't find our Redesigns bad that would be in conflict with everything you've said here, if you think our Redesigns aren't bad if would mean you'd understand that all of our Redesigns live up to the champion's theme better.

That said - I hope you get the point now, I hope you realize we aren't missing the point of champions at all, if anything, we've made the point more presence in the design of the character.

I hope you'll respond fast, as I'll be waiting.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-21-2013

Voila, @jamoecw:


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamoecw View Post
thus the redesign as written is very similar, with differences being an increased emphasis on AoD and spreading the passive, and the removal of the skill shot and stun in favor of an auto target spell. these changes increase his zoning ability which were strong to begin with, although it seems to sacrifice nuke potential due to the fact that he can't stun a target in his AoD.
Exactly, so long story short: Brand gets to play and behave like the ultimate fire mage he could always be, very cool and improves on readability theming and counterplay.

Note: 'The more distinctive a playstyle is the more counterplay there is to it' - this applies to every Redesign, including Brand.

The weakness he would have now (including no mobility at all, wich he has neither currently) is that he can't keep people together - so people can just walk out of the fire, this doesn't make him less viable though, it means that he is more reliant to have someone make up
for his weakness (something that currently happens aswell but less drastic) - something like Amumu, he keeps people together while Brand can safely burn sh*t down.

Watch the 'Snoopeh pro player pick', he even mentions how he loves playing amumu with a brand in his team as it sync's really well.

Quote:
by removing his skill shot you have removed the one ability which relied on mechanical skill, in favor for an auto target AoE spell, thus you could rapidly tap the button waiting for the conditions to align allowing the skill to be used, ie. chasing in hopes of using heimi's rockets. generally speaking you want to increase damage dealt, which 2 of the abilities can't be used unless 1 of the other 2 is used, means that options in starting the combo is reduced to in half, and continuing the combo results in the other ability being used 3rd, the thinking aspect of choosing which spells to use in which order are reduced considerably. as the ult needs the target set ablaze 3 times in order to get it to full effect, and there are only 2 spells that do such, you won't use Q in a ult combo, either because the ult does too little damage relative to the Q (making it useless), or too much (so that you would always want to get the ult to bounce back).
I don't really get what you are trying to say here, so let me break it down in my language:

You do realize Q intensifies the blaze on effected targets right ? It doesn't pop or detonate for additional burst damage. (You know - we are all about theming, fire doesn't randomly pop or detonate, whereas fire can intensify growing a larger, hotter flame !)

Brand can open with W and E aswell as R (obviously R pretty dumb move) and then get enhanced abilities on his abilities once the targets are ablaze (makes sense because before you do more damage when your enemies are on fire you first have to light them up).

How is this any different from current Brand ? Currently, Brand is encouraged to use his W, E or R (obviously opening with R a pretty dumb move) before he casts his Q, as it will stun targets if they are set ablaze.
The only difference between Redesign Brand and Brand currently is that his Q is currently cast-able without blaze affected on a target while Redesign Brand is not able to cast Q without hitting champions with other spells.

Quote:
You meant pushing too far or over extending. though by mid game allowing yourself to be pushed back to tower the whole time against an aggressive high mobility champ means your going to get dove on quite frequently, and hard. pooling is the counter to such dives, which increases the duration the melee champs have to stay under turret when they dive you (waiting for pool to wear off), brand isn't a melee champ, allowing him to siege you would be a mistake, as all he would have to do is throw down some AoD under your turret and you will have to run from under your turret until W or E has worn off, unless you are some one with an ability to counter dives, like vlad.
No - not exactly. You can prevent Riven from diving you if you manage your minions well, the enemies minions, obviously. If you clear them out at the right time you can make sure the lane will push towards or near your tower yet not giving her a chance to dive you as she'll get turrets hits from the start, this doesn't happen if 20 minions are beating on your tower, then she can simply walk up to you wich is what you want to prevent.

First of all, juking is pretty easy especially since Brand no longer has something to lock you in place anymore with the Redesign, secondly, you are doing something wrong if he zones you while he's pushing the lane, this is what happens with no or low mobility champions that push their lane: they get ganked and die. Or they don't even have to die by a jungler nessecarily, especially if you are playing a high mobility champion myself.

I play tons of Xerath ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pkulWnFm5s ) and I stay at my tower at all costs, pushing out minions as much as I can if they are near my tower, however there have been tons of times where I overextend playing against a high mobility champion; they rush up to me and kill me. This doesn't make Xerath underpowered or in this case Ahri overpowered, it means that she has the upper hand if I give her space while I have the upper hand if I don't give her space.
It's balantly obvious, poke/range gets screwed over by high mobility or fast initiation. Nidalee spears hitting for 2k + damage before the fight has even started ? No freakin' problem, make sure that fight starts ! *Malphite ults in*

notice the range of counters listed, quite a bit of which involves avoiding the one ability which was removed. thus if your counterplay section is at all applicable, you only have one option: get zoned. as specifics are not listed in the descriptions, these little sections are pretty important for figuring out the general balance the designer is aiming for, which says that he zones out everyone, at the range of his spells, which if is like existing brand's range means that he will be able to zone out pretty much everyone. many people aren't happy with darius due to the fact that he zones any melee dependent champion, and a few ranged as well. brand's redesign basically says that he can zone any one that gets with in his spell range just like darius can, only that his spell range is far, instead of melee ranged, and that unlike darius he has excellent teamfight presence.

If anything, Redesign Brand is worse in terms of zoning and therefore less toxic in terms of counterplay compared to current Brand.

Redesign Brand focuses on doing damage over time where you take more damage the longer you are set on fire, his abilities actually finally fit to his theme and his W is no longer a generic circle of burst damage with a fire skin it's actually a characteristic spell where he lights up the ground spawning a line of fire.

So let's break Brand down in terms of counterplay:
Starting with E, both designs have a 'on target' E spell, actually it's exactly same spell as it contributes to his playstyle and makes sense in terms in theming.

Current counterplay Brand: Hits E, burns you as long as you are in range. Can follow up with Q easily (im aware its a skillshot, but its pretty easy to hit), hitting a guarenteed W after.

Redesign Brand counterplay: Hits you with E, can burn you with Q guarenteed, mana cost is doubled if you use it again in a short period of time. W counterplay: Walk out of it.

More or less, current Brand is more toxic because he is able to constantly screw you over with Burst damage while providing little counterplay other than 'dodge this skillshot Q' as if he hits - you are screwed.

Redesign Brand could be considered to be more toxic if his Q is extremely spammable while having a low mana pool - this is not our intent, it would be brokenly OP to hit Q and E guarenteed killing someone over and over, therefore the manacost 'doubled' mechanic, more counterplay to W.

You tell me.

Quote:
who said counterplay was bad? i said that the counterplay presented is bad.
Presented counterplay is bad ? What does that mean ? Does that mean he ability to interuppt channeled spells is bad ? Such as Master Yi meditate or Katarina ult ? Wouldn't that be 'presented counterplay' ? Or varus ult ? Where they intended to provide counterplay wich is: get away from eachother, walk out of range so the ult doesn't spread !

If anything, stuff that doesn't provide counterplay is extremely toxic, Yorick being the best example of that.
Morello finds Yorick one of the worst designs in LoL history - he regrets putting that champion into League with all his heart. It's a no-brain no-counterplay champion.


Quote:
it is stating why the reworks aren't that great: redesigning champions into something that will get nerfed by design.
They have defined strengths and weaknesses, it's a complete 50 - 50 trade-off. If a champion is strong in this aspect, it will be weak in all others and so on.

It's pretty funny how you say the redesigns would be stupid as they would need to get nerfed by design yet you don't respond on this, previously you mentioned Nocturne Redesign to be unreliable:

'Wandering alone is okay in the right circumstances, it is not playing against a TF or Nocturne as they can immediately jump or be near you.

Nocturne Redesign might look a bit unreliable but it's no different from current TF and TF sees competitive play frequently and is extremely popular at diamond elo.
'

There's not a lot of difference, the counterplay is clear as day and they both sacrifice stuff for their power.

Nocturne Redesign focuses on screwing over champions if they are alone - and god we see how this happens plenty of times in competitive play, notice how much Kha'Zix proc's his passive on targets, instagibbing them. Unreliable ? Not at all. Counterplay ? Works and is clear as day, as there also are tons of matches where a Nocturne or Kha'Zix isn't as effective because the enemy team plays smart.

Twisted Fate focuses on ganking, though he also has the ability to screw over champions if they are alone with little HP. Unreliable ? Not at all, Twisted Fate is picked frequently at competitive play and diamond ELO, always having the ability to make some use of his ultimate. Counterplay ? Works clear as day, as there also are tons of matches where a Twisted Fate isn't as effective because the enemy team plays smart.

Nocturne's Redesign weakness is teamfighting, as well as TF's current weakness, they offer things to their theme while having to sacrifice other stuff - TF sacrifices teamfighting strength (something mages like Orianna and Cassiopea have) for Ganking Power and Utility. Much like Orianna doesn't have Ganking Power because her strength is teamfighting.

Does this mean TF is bad at teamfights ? His kit is most certainly not the best, but we all know fed TF that has snowballed with his ult; still wrecks balls in teamfights. That means the opponent team let him screw them over, that's not TF's OP'ness doing work, it's the TF player that made use of his strength wich eventually snowballed to covering up his weakness with the amount of gold he made; suddenly TF hits as hard aswell.

Nocturne's Redesign is bad at teamfighting ? If he snatches a few people off-guard killing them, obviously you'll notice the difference/impact he suddenly has on teamfights.

Quote:
one of your stated counter plays was to not push lanes, which i replied that one needs to push lanes in order to take turrets. since taking turrets is how you win the game, simply using the counterplay: don't push lanes is not viable by itself, thus against TF you will do more than just not push lanes, you will prepare against him ganking you. so as it pertains the the discussion on brand's redesigned counterplay, which states that getting zoned prevents you from dying, pushing against a team with TF on it does not mean that you will die, it means that you might get ganked. in fact even if you don't push lane you might get ganked, TF's gank kit is counterplayed by countering ganking, not by preventing yourself from taking steps to take tower.
TF's gank kit is both counterplayed by staying passive aswell as counter ganking. I believe I've said enough concerning Brand Redesign.

Quote:
i agree that the OP was interesting, or else i would have moved on, and the redesigns are in fact creative. however i feel that the redesigns that i read were not very well thought out, and maybe might be better with more input to help refine the designs.
'I disagree. I feel while I'm biased towards my viewpoints (of course, they are mine after all) that doesn't mean I'm entirely wrong (or even entirely right - the chance that's I'm 100% right or wrong being extremely unlikely).' - Someone said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy
The difference here is that I actually know what I'm talking about, and have spent years developing my own game design philosophy by looking critically at video games and analyzing the science of play--and more recently, acquiring education from (working) professionals in that field. I have the advantage of knowledge on the subject matter as well as the capacity to think critically about it that comes from years and years of dedication. I'm not being subjective about this at all--which tends to happen when you break things down to a science (as I have done with champion design).

The fact of a matter here is that a well-designed champion is all about the ideals expressed in the OP. Staying true to theming creates greater readability and also tends to lend itself to defined playstyles, with prominent strengths and weaknesses. The more prominent the strengths and weaknesses, the greater variety of champions that can be "viable," the more dynamic the game becomes, and the more involved interaction between players becomes--and this last point is at the very core of competition of any sort, this dance of sorts between opponents. "Play" is something that has existed long before humans were around to define it. It's a science, not a matter of opinion. It's like coming to a nuclear physicist and just saying that the data his research provides is wrong because you "just don't think it's right.
So yeah, this is what the Redesigns do:

-More defined strengths (meaning there is a reason to play this champion over X champion within the same role, and a reason to play X champion over this champion as well--nothing is tiered because every champion excels equally at their own thing and doesn't try to be anyone else)

-More defined weaknesses (meaning counterplay is easily accessible and easily understood, as opposed to simply "don't get hit by X ability" or "don't let them farm" or "wait for them to fall off after 20 minutes")

-Greater diversity (in terms of roster and team compositions--all champions fitting into either Defensive, Aggressive, or Control-based play instead of all trying to do the same thing and playing the same game every time regardless of which champions are in play)

-More dynamic flow (all of a champion's abilities work towards a common goal instead of just being a hodge-podge of things they can use to fulfill their role--Irelia is a perfect example of why this is an awful thing to have)

-An enriched experience (playing Olaf, for example, is a much different experience from playing Shaco--both are very well-defined and thematically juicy champions, and offers more to the player than simply "oh with this champion you have to use these abilities in this order and buy these items")

What exactly is bad about this again?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-21-2013

Waiting, dudes : )


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

jamoecw

Member

01-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
-More defined weaknesses (meaning counterplay is easily accessible and easily understood, as opposed to simply "don't get hit by X ability" or "don't let them farm" or "wait for them to fall off after 20 minutes")
Quote:
Originally Posted by redesign
Counterplay: Against Brand, primarily involves either not catching on fire (by ambushing Brand and not giving him a chance to set your team ablaze), or cutting his fire's effectiveness as much as possible by not sticking too close together as a team and isolating allies hit by Conflagration until they cool off.
can you explain how this is different than "don't get hit by X ability" other than the X = 2 abilities?


also you said that the new brand's passive now works different than the existing one in regards to interaction to his spells:
Quote:
You do realize Q intensifies the blaze on effected targets right ? It doesn't pop or detonate for additional burst damage. (You know - we are all about theming, fire doesn't randomly pop or detonate, whereas fire can intensify growing a larger, hotter flame !)
the current brand's spells will remove the blaze effect in exchange for some added ability, such as extra damage, a stun, prioritization of champs, changing spell to AoE.

Quote:
I'm not quite sure how this whole get-up works, but I'm going to be using this site to host a less word-intensive version of my original LoL Champion Redesigns blog! In general, I'll be removing all numbers (including base values/scaling/cooldowns/etc.) to get the basic gist of what I've done with these redesigns, since number-balance is not my forte and I'd rather keep attention on the core of the kits instead of giving people opportunities to nitpick about Things That Don't Really Matter!

So without further ado, let's see if I can figure out how to work this thing...
so gist of the new brand is a fire mage with the listed abilities, but on a competitive level how will you deal with him?
Quote:
Counterplay: Against Brand, primarily involves either not catching on fire (by ambushing Brand and not giving him a chance to set your team ablaze), or cutting his fire's effectiveness as much as possible by not sticking too close together as a team and isolating allies hit by Conflagration until they cool off.
by staying away from him, not by charging him and turning a poke into a fight, or by using sustain to negate his poke, or even by out poking him. no, the 'gist' of dealing with him is killing him so fast he never hits you with a single ability (as that would set you ablaze, which is the condition you must avoid).

if you read the blog now, you'll see the ult now matches the existing brand's, and heimi's repair bots now give armor and MR to his turrets, so it would appear that i am right in that feedback is good in order to refine ideas.