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Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? - Theming in LoL - @IronStylus, @FeralPony

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jamoecw

Member

01-16-2013

brand's rework that you posted isn't that great, you wanted it so that you don't always pick the same skills in the same order, yet his q can only work if other abilities are used first.

Quote:
Counterplay: Against Brand, primarily involves either not catching on fire (by ambushing Brand and not giving him a chance to set your team ablaze), or cutting his fire's effectiveness as much as possible by not sticking too close together as a team and isolating allies hit by Conflagration until they cool off.

in essence you are saying that he will dominate teamfights and laning. if you are near your minions then you will get hit with E's bounce and thus to counter him you zone yourself out of cs. in team fights you should have the carry run away when hit and not participate in the team fight.

the issue you don't address is that while being thematically centered is nice, so is balance throughout skill levels. if everyone had the same skill level then it would make the job of making things thematical easier. brand is a fail, thinking through your own counter analysis says that.
Quote:
Counterplay: Against Heimerdinger, involves negating the effectiveness of Heimer’s machines—whether that means destroying them outright, or constantly applying pressure to different areas of the map—forcing him to constantly rebuild and thus leaving him without enough scrap to reach maximum efficiency.

another words, he can be completely countered just by using current anti turret tactics, as well as putting pressure on other areas of the map (how does heimi get there in the first place? he isn't a mobile champ), also since he needs scrap, which is dropped from minions on death, which means being close to the action, which means being easily poked, and increasing his need to fight close to the tower to avoid getting caught out in the open (again not a mobile champ), unless it is gained the same way as gold is, in which case having the jungeler camp your lane is even more of a burden, as you will get zoned and be unable to use your abilities as often now that you have double the need. the heimi rework may solve thematical issues, but worsens existing issues with heimi. perhaps if the W bot had a mana (or what ever you wanted to call it) bar and provided a shield to all nearby friendlies which transferred the damage to its mana, do enough damage and the mana gets depleted, removing the shield until recharged. that way you get have some way to protect your inventions and yourself, though i am not sure if that is the best solution. which ever way you go you have to keep in mind that the purpose of the nade and rockets is so that he can protect his turrets, remove those abilities and you need to find another way to their job.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Yevsten:
The reason I placed this on your post is to make sure others see my redesign and decide if it viable in itself and to give constructive criticism where it is needed. You flat out discredit my design because it is not your opinion without a shred of critic, you just want to throw in my face that they need to rework the way he looks and lore but that is a small fix. You need to give viable programming and game play options without saying he needs to be more like an inventor. Next time don't belittle someones advice when they just want to see a character be viable and not just a gimmick and can stand on its own without hoping for other champions to carry them.


In our thread, the very thread you are posting under RIGHT NOW completely explains why and how he should be more of an inventor.

Your entire post waters the experience down as an inventor and is possibly even imbalance due to the generic mage abilities of his current grenade and rocket.

I'm not entirely sure why you'd think I unconstructively aim to tell you that your design is bad - I do not, I think we've constructively dismantled the entire current state of Heimderdinger and the Rework he'll be getting of Riot.

I thought this would be obvious (hence I have no clue why you posted your redesign suggestion in the first place) - my advice: Come up with a Redesign where Heimerdinger completely relies on being an inventor and lives up to that theme and playstyle as much as you can.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
jamoecw:
brand's rework that you posted isn't that great, you wanted it so that you don't always pick the same skills in the same order, yet his q can only work if other abilities are used first.


I absolutely can't tell what you are trying to say here, apparently you either can't read or need a dictionary - let me quote this for you:

'One of the things I really tried to make happen with these new kits is somewhat of a deconstruction of the whole "okay you max or use ability X first, Y second, and Z third all the time'

Do you get the definition of trying ?

There will ALWAYS be designs where you simply have a specific spellcombo or spellorder - this is NOT a flaw in Brand's Redesign however as it encourages and lays an emphasis on his theme.

Fire spreads and burns right ? Well you also have to keep fire burning, Brand's Q lays an ENTIRE emphasis on his playstyle where you are rewarded of keeping your fire spread among the enemy team, much like current Sejuani is rewarded for applying frost onto her enemies and being able to detonate the stacks.

Current Cassiopea shares this with Redesign Brand, if she keeps her poison on a target running her E will refresh - ItemsGuy moved this to Brand Redesign however as that mechanic is more fitting and thus more readable for a 'Spreading Fire' playstyle.

Not only did you not get that ItemsGuy tried to get rid of the 'no skill button mashing combo's' (WICH HE PERFECTLY DID WITH MALPHITE REDESIGN) - you also tried to tackle us on a Redesign where it actually completely fits to have an ability that's only usable after using your other skills, wich is no different from current Brand (E spreads and R seeks targets only if targets are effected by blaze) - something we approved of that was awesome, characteristic and cool in the first place, we literally have said this in our OP.


Quote:
in essence you are saying that he will dominate teamfights and laning. if you are near your minions then you will get hit with E's bounce and thus to counter him you zone yourself out of cs. in team fights you should have the carry run away when hit and not participate in the team fight.


There's nothing wrong with champions that have a strong laning phase and strong teamfighting (something Brand currently has already, he has good zoning, a strong laning phase and good teamfighting presence).

Also - moving away/giving up CS is already EXTREMELY COMMON to do so, also depending on match up.

TF against Orianna ? TF has a hard time, a good Orianna will screw him over - as TF against Orianna it's safer to stay in the back and toss out safe Q's to farm, if you give too much space, Orianna can kill TF easily.

Katarina against champion X - A good player will ALWAYS tend to stay in the back/be passive in lane against a Katarina when they know her bouncing blades is off cooldown as otherwise you'll always eat her harass.

Vladimir against Irelia, Riven - Irelia and Riven are considered to be a very hard matchup for Vlad, as a Vlad player I've noticed that if I tend to stay passive in the laning phase, trying to force my enemy into pushing the lane I manage to survive to level 6 and poke them down with constant Q's - outsustaining them. However, if you give too much space as a Vlad against Riven or Irelia - they will kill you as even your pool won't save you.

What you described here is completely invalid - you try to tackle us on things that aren't even a problem as the 'strategies'/'options of counterplay' already exist and in some cases are even detrimental to the game (such as TF against Kassadin or Orianna, he can get utterly destroyed if he moves out to far).

Also, our 'counterplay' theory is getting rid of all of the abilities/mechanics that have NO counterplay at all such as Taric stun (hence with the Redesign it has counterplay where you can try to break the crystals).

Playing passive/staying back in lane - that's counterplay ! Sure perhaps you'll miss out a bit on cs but atleast you've prevented yourself from dying !

The strengths and weaknesses aswell as the counterplay is extremely obvious.

Playing against a lane bully ? Stay in the back, play passive.

Playing against TF ? Don't push your lane ! These two already exist in the game, not sure what you were trying to point out.

Quote:
Heimerdinger zzzz

All you have done ranting on the Heimerdinger design is how to shut him down, wich exactly confirms the amount of counterplay there is against him, you can make every champion look useless like this.

TF useless look they are not pushing their lanes !
Look Nocturne Redesign is useless no one is wandering alone !
Look Zyra Redesign is useless someone is seeking for her plants she's growing and killing them !

All of these redesigns create a game where champions have defined strenghts and weaknesses where the entire game revolves around playing your advantages over your disadvantages and punishing the opponents disadvantages harder than they can play their advantages.

I'm sincerely, truely a sad panda after reading your comment - you've proven no point whatsoever.


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Yevsten

Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
BestBilbo:
Please read the thread before posting, otherwise feel free to ignore.


In this thread, we will discuss what it means to be a Champion in the League of Legends and why fully realizing this is important to all aspects of the game.
I'll be using quotes from Rioters in the official Champion Retrospective video to direct the discussion.

You have used quotes and feedback out of context to best suit what you feel is your best interest and gain.

Before we start, I'd like to introduce ItemsGuy and myself, BestBilbo, as the authors of this thread.

ItemsGuy is going for an MFA in Interactive Design/Game Development at the Savannah College of Art and Design, and has taken multiple courses regarding character design in video games.

If ItemsGuy is getting his "Masters" degree in fine art then by has he not graced us with his renditions of these champions or what they are suppose to look like and act with action shot and character expressions. Also I have been taught by people with "Masters" degrees in fine art and let me tell you, not impressed.

I, BestBilbo, am from EUW, my Elo is ~1600-1700 on my main 'Perifear'. I feel the same way as ItemsGuy and after we've bumped into each other I've learned a lot. We've been working together on these threads ever since.

You do not need to boast your Elo score as it has already been resetted and you fail to tell us which champions you used to gain such high Elo even in the first place.

Let's go:



Great! So do we. We're both longtime players of LoL and love the game dearly.

How many years and what are your favorite champions?



Epic! The amount of options in League are endless. To be able to play a true nightmare, a tricky jester, a badass chick riding a boar, or a scarecrow - AWESOME!



First of all - How is a playstyle defined?



We especially love characters where you don't just use the character but that you actually feel and are encouraged to play LIKE the character, such as Shaco.
He looks tricky, feels tricky, he plays tricky and his playstyle is so defined and different from the 'typical assassin' in League that he does not feel generic. Shaco plays like Shaco - like no other champion does.

A ploy in classic misdirection, failure to actually answer the question in a way that best answers the question or even answers it. My answer the playstyle is defined by your own playstyle in which League of Legends has many types of characters that suits your need to either play helpful in where you back up your team mates in combat, be the lone gun man as you out gun anyone standing in your path. Be a wrecking ball that plows through people and defenses to lead your team to victory, be sneaky and attack from behind enemy lines and retreat before spotted, or be that bull dowser that is pushing your team forward to the finish line. These are only a few of your options that you can choose as there is something to suit your needs or play style.


How do we view current champion design versus how we feel it should be ?



We asked ourselves this, too, and we feel that we've answered that question the same way: with the coolest, out-of-this-world characters doing the most amazing things we've ever seen.

Untrue answer, you are asking for realism that follows far beyond the lore and what the game mechanics can offer.

Sadly, we don't think the current state of champions are as awesome as they could be. Please keep your minds open about this: we know that Riot has worked hard on everything for years. I (Perifear) am not a designer while ItemsGuy is still studying, we just critically observe stuff and give our opinion.

You also undermine other peoples opinions if they do not follow your own and even though ItemsGuy is studying for his "Masters" he should still have the expertise to give a justified and solid answer for at least a bachelor's degree stand point. I have done that in the sense of programming knowledge and game mechanics and yet you discredit them without the slightest proof or giving a reason why.

Take Heimerdinger for example - we know he's being reworked - we just feel his concept could be stronger.

How should it be changed? Should he be more like Isaac Clark, engineer in Dead Space? Or more like the wanderer in the Fallout series where he creates weapons?


But what difference does it make? Didn't Heimerdinger invent these weapons?

In the lore it never says he made these weapons only that he made the glow wand torches that light the pathway, and with the custom piltover skin it looks cool but not really in his lore, you may think he built these turrets and weapons but even in his lore he never resorted to fighting but came to the League for scientific purpose.

Well if his turrets were like release Heimer's then he wouldn't be fun for everyone else!

This answer is a little confusing but yes that is why they weakened him or what the kids these day call "NERFING." To many people were upset that they were being bowled over by a champ they thought was too strong so they tried to balance him out so people would not be upset and then champion designers such as Feral Pony now have to pick up the pieces and have the delicate job of making a champion like Heimerdinger a viable, playable champion again where people do not have Yordle flash backs. This deals with game mechanics not MFA doodles to make him look more engineeringly or inventory.

Heimerdinger's turrets right now are used as a 'fire and forget' type of ability. Heimerdinger drops his turret and nearly all interaction between his turret and him ends.

You must also assist your turrets to make sure you can get the final kill if not he gets no gold.

We think that a lot of champions could benefit from a well-defined playstyle that enriches the player's gameplay experience.

Why have you not told us your opinions on play style?

We'd love to be Heimerdinger the 'Revered Inventor' rather than a mage that drops a turret then pokes.

Inventors have down time to reflect and research, so does Heimerdinger. It is called COOL DOWN.

We'd love for him to be a character with a playstyle that way more distinct from other AP's.

He has permanent minions that don't follow him and can actively farm for him if he needs to assist another team mate. How many other champions have that ability or can make turrets, what do you really want from him?

With a better defined playstyle, he'd revolve around creating things. Not a "just gonna drop a turret here' playstyle, but something innovative and entertaining.

He is a mage pusher, he takes a lane and holds out for ganks and takes out towers, that is his playstyle. If you don't like that play style use your creativilty to rework Heimerdinger yourself of ask MFA to do it for you with drawings on what would best suit "YOUR" play style.

Instead of using a "FREE HP5" passive, something like an innate ability to collect the scraps of slain minions, to use as a resource for his inventions.

So instead of having infinite ammo turrets that fire while being "REPAIRED" by the "REVERED INVENTOR" you want the squishiest champion to stroll out past is turrets to pick up scrap to make more turrets that destroy old turrets and waste more mana? How difficult does playing Heimerdinger have to be for you? Just tell people to stop playing him.

You get to collect scrap and actually build/invent stuff, instead of only dropping your 'already built' invention on the ground.

So go collect nuts and bolts out on the battlefield and jury rig a turret that is so rickety that the person telling you to do this can then question himself on how this is feasible. Should Gangplank and Miss Fortune go pick up scrap as well and place them in their Blunderbuss shotguns and then be able to fire there Q attacks also, since back in the day pirates did that sort of thing to repel boarders? You really love do to listen to yourself think and talk with no sense or realm don't you?



Could you give more examples ?


Where can Cho'Gath find the nearest portal to the void to pick up more spikes, Lulu needs more pixey dust where does she go, Ashe ran out of arrows, Graves is out of shotgun shells, Katarina lost her last knife, Ryze forgot his book, Brand needs a light, Draven threw his sword in the forest and lost it, Caitlyn is out of .50 cal, Anivia is melting, Ahri needs more souls or she will pass out, Corki out of Ammo, Gragas lost his barrel, Irelia lodged her blades in a tree, Kog'Maw is out of puke, Malphite is coming to pieces, Nami is thirsty, Nidalee is out of spears, it is too hot for Nunu, Olaf threw his ax somewhere, Rumble out of ammo, Shaco needs more jack-in-boxes, Singed out of poison, Sivir lost her Chakram, Talon lost his favorite blade, Teemo needs more darts, and shrooms, Tristana out of ammo, Twisted Fate played 52 pick up and lost, Twitch out of arrows, Urgot lost his hook hand and lobbed his last canister, Vayne out of arrows, Viktor needs to recharge, Vlad is feeling light headed from blood loss, Xerath needs a jolt, Ziggs is out of Bombs and Matches, and Zyra needs to go to Lowells


Why don't you think he does that currently ?


No sense of imagination, time constraints, and logic


'So basically you are trying to say that especially with Maokai, Riot tied random generic abilities/kit to theming visuals (adding nature particles in this case) instead of the other way around: Coming up with pure nature/forest stuff and then designing abilities around these nature/forest ideas.'

It is a fantasy action game you make characters that are unique and unusual that people will enjoy playing.

Exactly.



'Well that's cool and all but maybe it doesn't nessecarily make sense or live up to theme but Maokai is allright, Brand works as a mage, maybe it doesn't make alot of sense but what of it ?

Exactingly it is a game where you pick a champ that you enjoy and you play the game to play the and get lost in the immersion of "COMBAT" not lore.

Brandon 'Ryze' Beck likes to think theme is very important however - and we most certainly agree.

Brandon 'Ryze' Beck - CEO/Co-Founder: 'Another thing that is really important to us is 'theme.' We really want characters to have a really central theme.'

'Well.. Maokai is themed around being a magical tree, read his lore. Not 'angry forest' theme.'

They are skins enjoy them or ignore them it does not pull away from the overall aspect of the game.


'Well you aren't suggesting anything ! You just basically say Zyra, Maokai, Brand and Heimer and stuff are bad and could be better, yet you don't suggest anything !'

And we won't - For now atleast. We want to see how things go:

Artist BS code for: We have no thought in our head to make the game better but only want to rain on everyone's parade in what they feel is fun and will not contribute to making League of Legends fun or better and only make other peoples opinion or ways to contribute to make this game feel inadequate as we say we are important we have a "Masters" but cannot not even make drawings, better lore, or even listen to what others think.

How do you feel about the subject, do you think the champions we've mentioned could live up more to their theme, would you like to have them a more unique approach/playstyle ?

Yes, duh

Why and why not ?

It adds to the overall immersion but your gripes are small and insignificant to the grand scheme which is play-ability, the characters must be balanced and well played before investing time, money, and resources into any type of endeavor. It is only common sense really, you don't invest money in a failing business and you don't place valuable people and resources such as reskinnings, lore, and dialog into a champ that noone hardly plays now-a-days, so it is up to people who enjoy these champs to explain and give their opinions on reworks and mechanic reworks so it then levies the burden of people like Feral Pony who must now have the daunting task of re-calibrating and fixing years of disaster and fears.

---------------------

Feedback time !

Thread One: We explain why more unique playstyles could be awesome and how they are not nessecarily OP - Just different.
If you wanted to leave feedback how more specific playstyles would be OP - Read that thread. (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2847697)

Thread Two: We explain why not only we would like these more unique/dedicated playstyles, we also suggest why we might need them. (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2894914)

If you wanted to leave feedback such as - 'Well I don't want these changes, we don't need them !' please read that thread.

I really just want you to stop writing asinine comments that don't help but only bury what people are trying to solve, I bet you were one of those people who complained about a Heimerdinger or some other old OP champ that destroyed you when you thought they were just some 12 year stuck in their parent's basement and instead of finding solutions all you did was find problem, please do the League of Legends forum, fan base, employees, and everyone who try to make this an enjoyable game fun, leave now and never come back.

Thread Three, this thread: We explain how more unique playstyles could be done by living up more to the original concept of the champion.

I go by the old adage "Put up or Shut Up." No art, lore, mechanic knowledge, or overall help just stop talking.

@IronStylus: We personally have invited you to the discussion because I like to believe you are an open-minded guy that likes to participate in a discussion if it's constructive and the subject discussion-worthy. Please feel free to help us out.

FeralPony: I've personally invited you as you have responded to my 'Complexity for the sake of complexity' thread a while ago back on EUW. It was a very bad thread as the title was misleading - complexity for the sake of complexity is bad game design, agreed. However in the actual post I tried to dismantle that, yet obviously due to the title the discussion was all about 'the complexity for the sake of complexity' argument.

Sounds like he ripped you a new one, since you are not posting the thread. Good for him

You did read my thread however as you gave a very detailed post where I am still absolutely grateful for - though you never came back.

For good reason

These threads and especially this one is a larger, more detailed, better written & constructed, clarify'ing my/our points way better than I could ever have imagined.
Hope to see you jump in again !


Right?

Thank you guys,

Perifear & ItemsGuy

Your Welcome, Yevsten

So TLDR ?


I'm just going to leave this smiley here:

So am I

EDIT: FAQ LIVE - SEE BELOW !

EDIT2: REDESIGNS ARE LIVE, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO CHECK THEM OUT, BENEATH THE FAQ !


They are not linked anymore or at all


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Yevsten:
They are not linked anymore or at all


You actually gave no valid points, no offense. Everything you've said here in misinterpretting our OP including nitpicking on our 'realism' aspect of champion-design.

You also speak of certain boundaries, Redesigns that can't be implemented - wrong.

Also we didn't speak of Maokai having 'skins' - his entire kit is misplaced in terms of theming as he doesn't really reflect 'A grumpy old angry stump' in the first place' - nor does he really reflect nature in his gameplay apart from his sapling. I even get back at this in more detail in our FAQ - answer/question 7.2 I believe.

Look, it's no problem you've got a bit frustrated/angry with me due to my first response on your Heimerdinger suggestion, I was wrong to come back at you with such a hostile tone. But besides from that - the arguments you've just given us is just disagreeing and coming up with random arguments that work in your favour. (Such as the fact I don't really think I have to explain you why collecting Scrap is more fitting and more characteristic of playing an Inventor, enhancing that expierence, while Ashe collecting her arrows would only be needlessly annoying).

I'm sorry dude - sadly we couldn't or haven't had the opportunity for a normal conversation. (this started with me responding to you like a ******bag)

Have a nice day and I guess I'll see if you'll return once 'you've cooled down a bit' as I think the arguments you gave now are not only out of frustration/anger to put us down - they are also quite irrelevant and I'm pretty sure you are smart enough to understand our reasoning behind all of what we say in our OP.

Also - please check the last comment on the first page, it's a small comment of mine telling a dude how a kit/abilities play an insanely big role when it comes to playstyle - not only the playstyle of the player.

(Eve is a good example of this, quote of FeralPony in the latest patch preview: 'Balancing Evelyn has always been tricky because the role she forfills for her team is so unique' - role/playstyle, her kit makes that possible primarely.)

PS: If you really want me to clarify - especially if you think you have valid points again our reasoning, I'll be happy to talk to you on Skype, I'm simply getting tired of typing, I'd gladly discuss that in a conversation in Skype so we can run through all of your points. I like to think I'm an open-minded dude so I'll give my honest opinion and I'll be manly enough to admit and agree if you have a really good point, gimme a message over here if you'd like that, if you do I'll add you on League after (on the NA client) so we can add eachother on Skype.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Bump.


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IS1d0cb1517abd96

Senior Member

01-17-2013

I didn't read everything you wrote yet but so far I more or less agree with you. The things you brought up are things I notice myself. I much more enjoy champions that both concept and theme are strong and you can feel it reasoning within them.

I think you are a little to nitpicking at times though.

I completely agree with Xerath or Maokai. At first when I read long range mag I was hyped. Ez is one of my favorite champions, because of his kite and long range assault. I was really disappointed that his range wasn't really that great and I wish his ulti would actually worked like Kog's. Kog is more of a living artillery than Xerath sadly. Also Maokai's Twisted Advance always seemed off to me. It wasn't matching with his design at all.

About Zyra and Brand. I understand what you mean but I think they already make Zyra pretty distinct and unique. Her plants combos are like Hermi's turrets but better and actually her whole kite is basing around it. Say what you want, but she isn't one of flowers you water with care. She is wild meat eating plant that groves wildly and eat you whole. I think they made decent job at her. Also I disagreed with Brand. He might spreed fire, but firing a fireball or making pillar of flame spreads fire as well. It's freaking fire. I get it is just generic skill but in this case it fits perfectly. And remember that every skill leaves his passive, so he is always spreading it. Also combos using his passive are one of things I like about him most. You can use them different in different situation and utilize them as you want. It gives him a lot of chooses, like you want, right? I wont argue about "awkward stun" since not always everything makes perfect sense in games. It's still game and need some balance, like this skill slows even thought it normally doesn't etc.


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IS1d0cb1517abd96

Senior Member

01-18-2013

Ok I started reading random champions you redesign and you mostly redesign for sake of redesigning or completely miss the point. I how feeling like you have no idea about those champions. I like you reasoning but when you apply it to champions who really has problems. In my opinion you wasted a lot of time for unnecessary redesigns. No wonder Riot doesn't post here. You are not as smart as you think. Not all your points are worth reading. If you are doing it as hobby, go ahead, but don't expect someone will make LoL2 basing on this. Also don't force your opinions on others.


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jamoecw

Member

01-18-2013

Quote:
BestBilbo:
I absolutely can't tell what you are trying to say here, apparently you either can't read or need a dictionary - let me quote this for you:

'One of the things I really tried to make happen with these new kits is somewhat of a deconstruction of the whole "okay you max or use ability X first, Y second, and Z third all the time'

Do you get the definition of trying ?

you tried something that you didn't want, or do you need a dictionary? see how what i said reflected what you said? i basically said you tried and failed with that one regard.

Quote:
BestBilbo:
There will ALWAYS be designs where you simply have a specific spellcombo or spellorder - this is NOT a flaw in Brand's Redesign however as it encourages and lays an emphasis on his theme.

so you admit you failed in that regard? and your getting snappy with me?

Quote:
BestBilbo:
Fire spreads and burns right ? Well you also have to keep fire burning, Brand's Q lays an ENTIRE emphasis on his playstyle where you are rewarded of keeping your fire spread among the enemy team, much like current Sejuani is rewarded for applying frost onto her enemies and being able to detonate the stacks.

Current Cassiopea shares this with Redesign Brand, if she keeps her poison on a target running her E will refresh - ItemsGuy moved this to Brand Redesign however as that mechanic is more fitting and thus more readable for a 'Spreading Fire' playstyle.

and brand's current skill set isn't? basically all that was done is remove the stun, and make it easier for the spells to jump to nearby enemies.

Quote:
BestBilbo:
Not only did you not get that ItemsGuy tried to get rid of the 'no skill button mashing combo's' (WICH HE PERFECTLY DID WITH MALPHITE REDESIGN) - you also tried to tackle us on a Redesign where it actually completely fits to have an ability that's only usable after using your other skills, wich is no different from current Brand (E spreads and R seeks targets only if targets are effected by blaze) - something we approved of that was awesome, characteristic and cool in the first place, we literally have said this in our OP.

how did you stop the mashing of buttons? as someone caught ablaze will run if they can't handle brand unloading everything, which results in a chase, which means brand will have to unload everything ASAP, hence button mashing, though without a stun he will have a harder time of it.




Quote:
BestBilbo:
There's nothing wrong with champions that have a strong laning phase and strong teamfighting (something Brand currently has already, he has good zoning, a strong laning phase and good teamfighting presence).

Also - moving away/giving up CS is already EXTREMELY COMMON to do so, also depending on match up.

'depending on match up' a very important phrase.

Quote:
BestBilbo:
TF against Orianna ? TF has a hard time, a good Orianna will screw him over - as TF against Orianna it's safer to stay in the back and toss out safe Q's to farm, if you give too much space, Orianna can kill TF easily.

he may have a hard time, but orianna is dependant on skill shots, and thus if he focuses on dodging while going for cs he won't be shut out completely. he also has a built in teleport, making him better able to gank other lanes to help make up for it.

Quote:
BestBilbo:
Katarina against champion X - A good player will ALWAYS tend to stay in the back/be passive in lane against a Katarina when they know her bouncing blades is off cooldown as otherwise you'll always eat her harass.

unless you have someway of dealing with the harass, winning the poke battle.

Quote:
BestBilbo:
Vladimir against Irelia, Riven - Irelia and Riven are considered to be a very hard matchup for Vlad, as a Vlad player I've noticed that if I tend to stay passive in the laning phase, trying to force my enemy into pushing the lane I manage to survive to level 6 and poke them down with constant Q's - outsustaining them. However, if you give too much space as a Vlad against Riven or Irelia - they will kill you as even your pool won't save you.

i think you mean that if you don't give enough space as vlad... how you said it means that if you are too far away they can kill you, which would mean they should kill you from the base, which makes no sense.

Quote:
BestBilbo:
What you described here is completely invalid - you try to tackle us on things that aren't even a problem as the 'strategies'/'options of counterplay' already exist and in some cases are even detrimental to the game (such as TF against Kassadin or Orianna, he can get utterly destroyed if he moves out to far).

i think it is completely valid to state that the the assessment has him hard counter everyone, and not just specific champs, which you have yet to come up with a single champ that exists that does such. also note that he is a ranged champ, which means that if you do alloy him to zone you while the minion wave is pushed to the turret, then he can poke the turret down. the counter of which is ganks, which is countered by wards. given that he zones out his opponent easily, he should have the gold to afford the wards, which makes him a bit too strong.

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BestBilbo:
Also, our 'counterplay' theory is getting rid of all of the abilities/mechanics that have NO counterplay at all such as Taric stun (hence with the Redesign it has counterplay where you can try to break the crystals).

Playing passive/staying back in lane - that's counterplay ! Sure perhaps you'll miss out a bit on cs but atleast you've prevented yourself from dying !

yes it is a counter play, but take into consideration that you are not really causing him problems, as after the laning phase there is the teamfight phase, which he is also really good at. so by staying back for enough to keep him from killing you you are weak for the team fight, and he is strong. in the end it is a pretty poor counterplay to rely on, and since that is designed counterplay, a poor design.

Quote:
BestBilbo:
The strengths and weaknesses aswell as the counterplay is extremely obvious.

Playing against a lane bully ? Stay in the back, play passive.

'and focus on last hitting minions for cs to keep yourself from getting completely shut down. when the gank happens join in and punish him for sticking his neck out so far.' a common quote, which is why strong ranged champs are squishy, to make ganks easier against them, and which is why in tournaments you'll see bullies using wards to good effect. you'll also note that bullies tie up the jungler for extended periods of time, going for ganks that do not happen due to ward coverage, resulting in 2 under fed champs when teamfight starts. it puts the enemy on the defensive from the start, which is why being a bully is ultimately a good thing, and generally why innate bullies tend not to have the best teamfight presence, and those that do are used frequently before they are nerfed.

Quote:
BestBilbo:
Playing against TF ? Don't push your lane ! These two already exist in the game, not sure what you were trying to point out.


All you have done ranting on the Heimerdinger design is how to shut him down, wich exactly confirms the amount of counterplay there is against him, you can make every champion look useless like this.

TF useless look they are not pushing their lanes !

lanes need to be pushed in order to take turrets, TF just adds another ganker in the mix, which means that you aren't removing pushing lanes, just making it more difficult.
Quote:
BestBilbo:
Look Nocturne Redesign is useless no one is wandering alone !

is wandering alone a good thing? generally not, due to the threat of being caught out in the open, though a little jungling is okay, if not then maybe the nocturn redesign isn't that great.
Quote:
BestBilbo:
Look Zyra Redesign is useless someone is seeking for her plants she's growing and killing them !

All of these redesigns create a game where champions have defined strenghts and weaknesses where the entire game revolves around playing your advantages over your disadvantages and punishing the opponents disadvantages harder than they can play their advantages.

I'm sincerely, truely a sad panda after reading your comment - you've proven no point whatsoever.


point:
'the issue you don't address is that while being thematically centered is nice, so is balance throughout skill levels. if everyone had the same skill level then it would make the job of making things thematical easier.'

the stuff about heimi, analysis of why what you put doesn't change the fact that he needs a rework. so if the heimi rework proposed in this thread was done it would still need a rework, making the rework useless at best.

i understand that you want the champs to have more emphasis on theme, but asking yourself why the abilities they currently have work, and then making decisions based of that info is pretty important as well. if the champ is in need of a rework currently, then there are pretty detailed topics going over why they need the rework, which you can use to address in your own rework.


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IS1d0cb1517abd96

Senior Member

01-18-2013

Ok the more I read it the more I'm sure. You have no idea what you're doing. I hope Riot will never take suggestion from you.