Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? - Theming in LoL - @IronStylus, @FeralPony

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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Durzaka View Post
If there is anything playing some Dota 2 has taught me, it is that LoL champions are BORING in comparison.

We need more awesome champions.
Well, IMO this is because in DotA they do not dedicate designs to a certain role, rather a certain playstyle.

This adds alot of diversity and variety among their roster, though not even DotA is perfect: the amount of micro management heroes you have in dota is immense, they are extremely hard to play and have a huge skillfloor and learning curve:

For most people this tends to be unfun and is quite unhealthy for competitive play; playing such a hero is first of all learning to use the character, not how to play them making strategic big plays, wich is kinda lame.

A good competitive game is highly accesable yet you can be extremely good at it, anything that requires tons of hours before you actually can get to play the game strategically/with actual outplaying and outhinking the opponent doesn't work very well, this is the reason League is the hugest Esport in the first place.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-04-2013

Alright, since insight always helps the creative process, I'd like some feedback on Ziggs players regarding his bombs:

Do they ever feel too "pop"-y to you? I recall the first time playing him, after throwing a few of all of his bombs, they felt more like water balloons than actual explosives (and then Pool Party Ziggs happened--so it might not just be me!); even though Q bounced and his Satchel Charge blew him into the air, everything just felt...flat, I guess is one way to put it. It felt like the moment his bombs were about to hit, they just vaporized and turned into "AoE magic damage," no explosion to be found.

Is this sort of lack of "bang" noticeable to any other players? I only ask this because while figuring out how to improve his minefield, I realized that out of all of his abilities, his ult was a bit out of place--while yes, it's a huge bomb for the bomb-thrower to throw (despite just vaporizing and turning into "magic damage" right before it hits the ground), it's the only part of his kit that doesn't lend itself to the "zoning" potential he has. With all of his other abilities--bouncing bombs, satchel charges, and mines--he's able to zone out enemies and keep them a fair distance away from him, but his ult is completely detached from this "zone" as the semi-global nature of it encourages you to use it to either help someone in another lane from the safety of yours or just throw it as soon as a teamfight starts (although I suppose it does help zoning in one regard--it's damn good at clearing enemies out of a certain area, much like Panth's ult). I'm seriously debating whether it should stay or not, so I'd like some insight from some Ziggs players, if there are any!


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Skyhawke

Senior Member

01-04-2013

Not a Ziggs main by any stretch, but I think getting rid of his "big huge bomb" would be a thematic error. To me it seems like Ziggs is actually one of the best designs in the terms you guys are discussing in this thread (he throws tons of bombs, fits "pyromaniac" trope very well) and honestly if I have a bomb themed character I'm expecting some giant damaging bomb skill. As far as your "pop" comments, I don't personally feel that way, except for maybe his ult (could use more visuals, or a lingering AoE damage field--like it leaves everything burning for a bit--oh wait that would be zoning potential for ya xD ). For the other skills, Satchel knocks things around, Bouncing bomb seems alright for a normal skill, and the mines actually feel very.. err.. explosive? The big sound and slowing effect really nails it in my opinion.

In short, the only things I would look at in a theoretical Ziggs redesign would be a lingering AoE efect on his Ult and a different passive (never felt quite right to me, but does give him more burst/poke).


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyhawke View Post
Not a Ziggs main by any stretch, but I think getting rid of his "big huge bomb" would be a thematic error. To me it seems like Ziggs is actually one of the best designs in the terms you guys are discussing in this thread (he throws tons of bombs, fits "pyromaniac" trope very well) and honestly if I have a bomb themed character I'm expecting some giant damaging bomb skill. As far as your "pop" comments, I don't personally feel that way, except for maybe his ult (could use more visuals, or a lingering AoE damage field--like it leaves everything burning for a bit--oh wait that would be zoning potential for ya xD ). For the other skills, Satchel knocks things around, Bouncing bomb seems alright for a normal skill, and the mines actually feel very.. err.. explosive? The big sound and slowing effect really nails it in my opinion.

In short, the only things I would look at in a theoretical Ziggs redesign would be a lingering AoE efect on his Ult and a different passive (never felt quite right to me, but does give him more burst/poke).
I wouldn't say he's a "pyromaniac" (that's more of Brand's job) as much as he's a "bomb enthusiast"--his Innate's good because it encourages him to throw as many bombs as possible all the time by rewarding him with...another bomb! A lot of this stuff is actually a reverse of what we talk about in the OP--instead of unfitting abilities being tied to proper visuals, it's his visuals that could use some work (you could still have the bomb that just does magic damage, but make it feel more satisfying than a water balloon--just purely with visuals and sound). As for the ultimate, I think I can make it fit the area-dominant play rhythms (while having more flow that "hey throw your huge bomb it does huge damage") while not taking away anything redeeming about it (range, AoE, huge bomb).

As for his minefield, I can agree with what an earlier poster said about it--it doesn't really feel like a "minefield." I can add a bit more depth to him with the changes I'm working on.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-04-2013

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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Finished with Ziggs!

Kept everything that was great about his original kit (so most of his original abilities are unchanged), but tweaked his mines and ult to better suit the strong zoning aspect of his kit and grant it more depth than "just land your skillshots" (while being a bit more explosive in the process).
I like how he has more of an impact/bombish nuke feel. His minefield is more strategic rather than: I'm gonna drop these exploding balls here while his ult has a bit more depth.

Another nit-pick but good and appropriate changes :)


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-04-2013

For those of you that have read my "Saved From the Cutting Board" post, Nasus and Renekton are the only two champions I'm currently considering remaking, as I feel that they have the potential not only to become fully fleshed-out and compelling characters (ie. both memorable even after only seeing them one time, and just being able to look at them and go "I wanna play this"), but have solid and readable kits with some depth as well.

Currently stuck on both of them, however--I've decided I want to give Nasus a "keeper of souls" playstyle that not only fits in with his theme but lends itself to something defined and unique to him and am probably going to end up turning his Q into something more temporary (even though its current nature is what he's most known for--I want his entire kit to come together to make something memorable, not just have one ability you have to watch out for and three other abilities that just kind of "happen"). What I'm thinking is, last-hitting with Q granting him a "soul" (up to a cap, we'll say 10 for now), and either all or X amount of souls being used with subsequent ability uses--making the nature of his Q readable while still having it be the "core" of his kit. I haven't decided how his other abilities would play out but I want to maintain a very patient playstyle, as it's something characteristic of Nasus and can really make him shine as a character in-game.

As for Renekton, I don't really have anything yet--I don't know whether to base his playstyle off of an (interior) crocodile/alligator, or off of being "the butcher" (although I think "butcher" is more prevalent as part of Mundo's new "mad doctor" playstyle, so I may end up sticking with our scaly friends as his core), and even then, if I should do something that allows him to act as a foil for his brother--just as Kayle and Morgana/Leona and Diana are foils for each other (ie. a more impatient and ferocious playstyle--which I think is already touched upon with him currently but could be accentuated flavorfully--to offset his brother's contemplativeness).

If any of you guys have suggestions in the meantime, I'd love to hear them! Alternatively, you could tell me what you find redeeming about them (Nasus and Renekton) and if I feel that it's something characteristic about them, I'll find a way to weave it in to the playstyle while keeping it relevant and concise.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
For those of you that have read my "Saved From the Cutting Board" post, Nasus and Renekton are the only two champions I'm currently considering remaking, as I feel that they have the potential not only to become fully fleshed-out and compelling characters (ie. both memorable even after only seeing them one time, and just being able to look at them and go "I wanna play this"), but have solid and readable kits with some depth as well.

Currently stuck on both of them, however--I've decided I want to give Nasus a "keeper of souls" playstyle that not only fits in with his theme but lends itself to something defined and unique to him and am probably going to end up turning his Q into something more temporary (even though its current nature is what he's most known for--I want his entire kit to come together to make something memorable, not just have one ability you have to watch out for and three other abilities that just kind of "happen"). What I'm thinking is, last-hitting with Q granting him a "soul" (up to a cap, we'll say 10 for now), and either all or X amount of souls being used with subsequent ability uses--making the nature of his Q readable while still having it be the "core" of his kit. I haven't decided how his other abilities would play out but I want to maintain a very patient playstyle, as it's something characteristic of Nasus and can really make him shine as a character in-game.

As for Renekton, I don't really have anything yet--I don't know whether to base his playstyle off of an (interior) crocodile/alligator, or off of being "the butcher" (although I think "butcher" is more prevalent as part of Mundo's new "mad doctor" playstyle, so I may end up sticking with our scaly friends as his core), and even then, if I should do something that allows him to act as a foil for his brother--just as Kayle and Morgana/Leona and Diana are foils for each other (ie. a more impatient and ferocious playstyle--which I think is already touched upon with him currently but could be accentuated flavorfully--to offset his brother's contemplativeness).

If any of you guys have suggestions in the meantime, I'd love to hear them! Alternatively, you could tell me what you find redeeming about them (Nasus and Renekton) and if I feel that it's something characteristic about them, I'll find a way to weave it in to the playstyle while keeping it relevant and concise.
Well doing something with Nasus like sounds very cool, a playstyle around a keeper/stealer of souls sounds really epic.

I think that you really should try to capture such a team but still make him relevant in teamfights: Let's say he has enhanced abilities when killing minions (passive play slowly building up an hard-hitting/enhanced ability) he does not have this option in teamfights.

Maybe a mechanic where the more soul he has captured in the game the faster they'll automatically generate/the more soulstacks he'll get from an assist ?

Basically I recommend trying to find a balance that makes him very cool in the laningphase having such a soulstealer playstyle and have that mechanic reward the rest of his game, much like 'Q farmed Nasus is going to screw you'.

Not sure if you think that's good design or not and in terms of viability it's even bad (Nasus hasn't seen a pro match since Sypher's Skyyart like 1,5 year ago) but I think that looks very promising.

In short: Try to make him an awesome character stealing souls while still making him reliable.

I do not own Renekton and have never really liked him so I do not have that much to say, but I really think that you should do the same similar like kayle-morgana, because it's readable and cool: Nasus the wise passive dude, Renekton the reckless aggresive dude.

Makes sense is cool.


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tenrel

Senior Member

01-04-2013

i want more mature champions.

and i don't mean mature in the pretentious ******baggy way. i literally want OLDER champions.

every human champion except zil could easily fit in the 20-30 age range. it's boring.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by tenrel View Post
i want more mature champions.

and i don't mean mature in the pretentious ******baggy way. i literally want OLDER champions.

every human champion except zil could easily fit in the 20-30 age range. it's boring.
Visual appearance is a cool and important aspect, we most certainly agree, but I don't think you'd be saying this if you'd get to play all of the redesigns of ItemsGuy.

Yes - maybe League could use some older men and women but the real problem is the current kits/playstyle/generic-ness of champions though.

PS: How do you like some of those Redesigns ?