Armor and MR are close to worthless.

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first time Vayne

Senior Member

12-19-2012

This change was meant to make strategy more important in winning games. Before, it was too easy to stack defenses when losing.


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Cloud Potato

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by magik8ball View Post
The thing that makes arpen such a weird stat is that, unlike any other stat, arpen scales with your enemies' stats. This applies to both flat and scaling arpen because of diminishing returns. If an opponent has low armor, flat penetration increases their damage taken more than it does vs a high-armor target. Likewise, scaling arpen removes more armor depending on how high the opponent's armor value is - it essentially makes armor more inefficient.
While its true ArP scales weirdly, it is also misleading. Dealing true damage on an enemy that only has 25% damage reduction looks menacing, but its only a 33% damage increase, which is the same bonus buying a Pickaxe on someone who currently has 75 AD.


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JurisDictum

Senior Member

12-19-2012

I don't know if going after penetration items is the way to go. If you hadn't noticed they already hit just about every source of flat pen. IMO, it makes more sense to make Armor and MR cheaper. Not only did they buff pen and lower the cost of dmg. They then raised of the cost of Armor/MR...they did this all at once.


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theoryyy

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by anAmishLady View Post
This change was meant to make strategy more important in winning games. Before, it was too easy to stack defenses when losing.
But I don't see how literally forcing every tanks to just go straight HP is pushing new strategies.
Plus, with all the new heroes nowadays who seem to have a skill that basically deals you more damage when you have more hp (%Max health as bonus damage) it really was a big slap to the face to people who like helping their team in other ways than just smashing some1 to the ground in 2 skills.


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Somohexual

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by FnRedBaron View Post
Sorc Shoes? Torment? Guise? Blackfire?
- Torment is only good on poke/DPS champions.
- Guise is still slot inefficient for a lot of champions because Torment is only good on poke/DPS champions.
- Blackfire isn't available on SR, which is honestly the only map that matters.


Black Cleaver + Last Whisper + Masteries + ARPen Marks = 45% and 28 flat ARPen

Void Staff + Liandry's Torment + Abyssal Scepter + Sorcerer's Boots + Masteries + MPen Marks = 40% and 58 flat MPen


Some things to take into consideration...

- ARPen has more % penetration available while MPen has more flat penetration.
- Liandry's Torment and Abyssal Scepter are niche picks that aren't efficient purchases for all AP champions, unlike Black Cleaver (the closest ARPen equivalent).
- At level 1 all champions start with 30 base MR
- At level 1 all champions start with 9-25 base AR.
- At level 18 the highest base MR possible (without runes/masteries/abilities/etc) is 53 MR.
- At level 18 the highest base AR possible (without runes/masteries/abilities/etc) is 90 AR.
- The total MR available from all FULLY upgraded items (on SR) is 486 MR.
- The total AR available from all FULLY upgraded items (on SR) is 745 AR.
- The item with the most MR is Runic Bulwark (3200g) with 60 MR.
- The item with the most AR is Thornmail (2200g) with 100 AR.


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Malefic Vision

Senior Member

12-19-2012

The thing is that the items that have Pen on them are good in their own right. Torment is an amazing item for anyone with a DoT (especially if they have a Ryalis), Black Cleaver gives AD, HP and CDR, Abyssal gives good AP and MR etc etc and they all come with Penetration to send them over the top.

I think defensive items need to have less offensive orientation and vice versa, so you build into what you want. Mercurial is MR and AD and QSS, Abyssal is MR and AP and MPen, Cleaver is HP and CDR and AD and Pen, etc etc etc and its just so stupid, that's b/s, there is no reason to spec into damage or tankiness when you can just get both.

As for defensive itemisation, an AD building a GA last etc serves no purpose but the prov because Penetration values are so high. I think Flat-Pen amounts should not stack with % Pen amounts they way they do.

Just...ugh. How is anyone meant to make a comeback when they can't even build defensively without crippling themselves into HP stackers


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Knote

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Gonna have to quote myself here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knote View Post
They did nerf the values of flat and % pen slightly, read the patch notes.

Penetration used to work that way along time ago anyway, and masteries had stronger penetration, wasn't a big deal then.

We don't have any new Mpen options. Haunting Guise was the same thing back then (with some hp/mana regen), now you're just paying extra for a VERY niche passive.

I remember when I used to stack Sorc Boots/Haunting Guise + mastery + mpen runes, then even void staff if there was an MR stacker over AP waaay back when because I used to think it was way more effective. Which it was, against champions, atleast very early in the game.

Mpen masterry is only 8% now, and void staff went from 40%-->35%, Haunting Guise 20 --> 15 mpen. It's not that much better.

Let's do the math. Sorc Boots/HG/Void Staff/Mastery/Mpen red

Pre S3 - 100 MR - 20/20/8.55 = 51.45 / 10% = 46.305 / 40% = 27.78

Post S3 - 100 MR / 8% = 92 / 35% = 59.8 - 20/15//7.83 = 16.97
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Pre S3 - 200 MR - 20/20/8.55 = 151.45 / 10% = 136.305 / 40% = 81.783

Post S3 - 200 MR / 8% = 184 / 35% = 119.6 - 20/15/7.83 = 76.77

That's a whopping 10 MR difference at 100 MR, and 5 MR difference at 200 MR. 100 MR isn't considered "tank" MR imo.
It's slightly stronger at lower MR values, but it should be considering you're stacking as much flat Mpen as you can (besides Mpen quints). But at high MR values it's really not that much better.

I never understood why they changed penetration to flat before % anyway, all it does it hurt the synergy between them. I'm glad they changed it, it doesn't feel terrible using them together anymore.
Not gonna speak about Armor Pen since Black Cleaver is completely different and provides both types of penetration in one item lol.

Although keep in mind % Penetration in the form of a debuff already interacted with Flat penetration the way it does now, since it's a % REDUCTION of armor, then your flat penetration applies.

So really it's no different than how it was before, Last Whisper and its interaction with flat pen is the only difference, and even then the values of penetration have been nerfed to accommodate this.

HP/Armor are also not your only form of defense, and if you didn't have it you would still die faster even against people with penetration.


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Gorsz

Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by JuanDeages View Post
Its because of the way pen is calculated now. If they reversed that change things would be a lot better for tanks and bruisers.

Also defence is harder to get now, with every defence item nerfed except aegis (which was given an upgrade which is currently the biggest MR item in the game.) They also removed FoN.


This is a good thing imo.. screw bruisers /tanks getting a couple items in s2 than making casters do ZERO damage after mid game.

Was stupid and unbalanced.


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