Black Cleaver + Lack of Penetration Auras

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hotfire

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Damn. I was stoked with 2nd torch not because of the stupid dot, but because its a guise upgrade and another cd source. Is it too late to make torch a catalyst item again so we could get a decent ap cd flat pen item?


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Kholdstare13

Senior Member

12-20-2012

BC seems fine now. Removal of pen aura seems to have brought back some heavier tanky sweepers like Irelia into a STRONG position. CDR aura may be buffing the wrong way, the champions who need cdr can itemize for it strongly enough already, while the champions who don't normally build for it would gain huge benefit.

I would personally like to see some item changes to give some power back to ranged champs over bruisers. Dominion-specific phage items with a MORE powerful ranged slow to compensate for the map design and ease of gap closers which force ranged champs into melee range. Perhaps an item with an active ability specifically for retreat, say a massive boost to speed and slow reduction for ~ 5 seconds, but you cannot attack or use abilities during this time?


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radicalratx

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SylianEUW View Post
That's part of the point. BFT is OP, so this is partly a nerf.
Yes, but it's poor itemization design. That's like saying, well, cleaver is OP, let's add MP5 to it. As much as I hate cleaver (I play mostly tanky APs), that's not the way to do it. There are a lot of manaless ADs out there who need itemization for them. Tweak the numbers if you want to nerf.

Same goes for BFT.


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Kholdstare13

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
BFT will indeed build out of Codex + Kage's + Guise (3950 total) and gain 10 mana/5, 10% CDR (20% total), and 10 AP (80 total). Minus the better slot efficiency, this should be a hefty nerf to the item.
So throw a guise into the middle of a Morellonomicon? Sounds fishy. Tristana would love the extra flat pen while still building flat pen boots, and the extra proc damage might occasionally ensure she can get her kill, but let's look at the stats here.

Compare it to Morellonomicon which builds from 2 of the same items, gives the same CDR, 2 more MP5, 5 fewer AP, and a grievous wounds passive for those without one in their kit. You are paying 1750 for the hp, flat pen, and proc, while losing the other passive. At least give it the 20-25 extra AP to balance that cost, 100 total AP minimum for that price.

If you need an extra nerf still, just look where its synergy is most abusable, traps. If possible, disallow traps from any champion to trigger the procs.

Global CDR aura would be overkill, and give more help to champs who don't build CDR than those who really want it. The surplus of AP CDR items is enough. Now, on the other hand, if you made the global aura give 10% AND raise the CAP by 10% (to 50) things could get interesting.


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konfetarius

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Global CDR aura would be overkill, and give more help to champs who don't build CDR than those who really want it. The surplus of AP CDR items is enough. Now, on the other hand, if you made the global aura give 10% AND raise the CAP by 10% (to 50) things could get interesting.
Raising the cap? Now that, *that* would be the CDR change that would utterly break this game mode far more than a slightly more spammy Wukong ever will.


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Cybrid 0x0T2MD2W

Member

12-20-2012

the black cleaver seems mostly good, but there's still the higher tier champions who use it with great effect compared to others. the com bo of black cleaver and last whisper still kinda over-turns tanks where it's better to just get hpor an odin and mallet

sadly I do not like the cooldown aura, nice but no

I know it's about black cleaver, but the blackfire torch still seems a bit excessive or activates on too many skills


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Cauldrath

Senior Member

12-20-2012

So, apparently the % shred on BC is getting buffed back up to where it was. Probably should just remove it from Dominion. I'm also not sure what the point of the new Lightbringer is, unless it's to make carries more viable bot lane? I'm also concerned that BFT is still going to be basically mandatory, but it's going to take even longer to finish, restricting itemization even more.


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Zeiro

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Senior Member

12-21-2012

I agree with Cauldrath's post.

I don't like BC. I kinda prefer a player are forced to choose between BC and LW, so that it would take at least two people cooperating to bring down someone who paid for armor in 3 seconds flat. (But would this make the game lean to AD bruisers/composition more?)

What if Black Cleaver is made from Last Whisper + Brutalizer? Kind of like the Frozen Heart building out of Warden's Mail? Maybe remove the HP.

Either way, I'm also good with BC being removed from dom. (I actually prefer that, but I'd guess some won't like it.)



On top of restricting itemization, the new BFT in the PBE is also less powerful than the current BFT + Codex. And it's only cheaper by 100 gold. The extra Mp5 on the new one is negligible. Unless it's a very long match, I don't really see a lack of item slot to go with BFT+Codex.

This is a nerf to BFT since it now takes longer to build, plus it doesn't really do much over the current BFT+Codex. In fact, you're trading off 20 AP for 4 more Mp5 on top of the delayed damage from BFT passive.

Edit: Reading back, I guess the "nerf" is what Nome intended. But I still don't like that I now have less itemization choices.

Maybe if Rylai's total cost is reduced to 1500 I'd be happy. T___T


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Ceruse

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Senior Member

12-21-2012

I do think adding Liandry's torment and splitting both paths while tweaking the stats for each would help diversify the item choice in my opinion. Because BFT seems to be heading in one direction, so Liandry could go in another territory (the effect with slow is already there, so why not add a bit to it?)


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

12-21-2012

I'm kind of confused at the idea that being forced to build a particular item that serves a particular purpose is a bad thing.

AP Carries on SR are forced to build Rabadon's in order to stay relevant. AD Carries are forced to build Bloodthirster (and previously, that rush was IE).

On Dominion, you've got an item specifically designed to keep casters relevant in the game mode to give them better mid-game scaling on par with bruisers and keep them relevant late game, and that's a bad thing? I don't see the difference in being forced to build BFT or being forced to build Rabadon's. What I don't like, is that the item works great for champions like Rumble and Singed who don't need that kind of help or power. There are plenty of other items to diversify your build, even if BFT is 'core'.

The same with Black Cleaver. If I'm an AD Carry, I'm building IE. It's silly if I don't, especially on Dominion where free gold reigns from the heavens. If I'm an AD Caster, I build Black Cleaver, because I don't benefit from critical strike just like AD Carries, but yet I require to get in melee range to deal my damage. There are plenty of other items to diversify your build, even if Black Cleaver is 'core'.

I think the issue there is that it's still not much of a detriment to stack cleavers. I would really like to see an explanation as to why health is on the item, and why the CDR isn't unique.