Black Cleaver + Lack of Penetration Auras

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Armed Weasel

Senior Member

01-05-2013

All I do is get the armor pen or magic pen items, it feels like.

Maybe have the cdr aura affect item actives? It's a big hit to only have them up every other major fight.


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VoidInsanity

Senior Member

01-06-2013

Considering that out of BFT and BC that BFT is the weaker of the two items, I still can't see how a BFT nerf is justified without BC being removed.


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Lessis

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Senior Member

01-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
BFT will indeed build out of Codex + Kage's + Guise (3950 total) and gain 10 mana/5, 10% CDR (20% total), and 10 AP (80 total). Minus the better slot efficiency, this should be a hefty nerf to the item.
think the best nerf for this item is the gold increase which will make tanks will not build it every game


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Lessis

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Senior Member

01-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talith PA View Post
I was just thinking that for champions like Vlad, Kat, Rumble, Morde, etc. having to pay for mana regen on an AP item is less than desirable.
the price you play for having no resource cost, i am ok with pushing them toward abyssal staff


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Rapid99

Member

01-07-2013

While I'm tempted to talk about Cleaver and Torch exclusively, I think the issues that have come with the items somewhat come down to the wider-state of how the last big slew of changes affected the flow of Dominion. Now this might get a bit ranty so fore-warned, but I'm going to try my best to keep it on track.

Alrighty, here we go.

Penetration has become the go-to stat for pretty much every champ aiming to do damage out there. The tweaks many defensive items received along with the penetration calculation changes have made stacking a form of defence to almost completely shut down a particular damage source almost impossible. This is a welcome change, but it has come with a number of issues that have not yet been sorted out.

Starting with the obvious – the new penetration items (Blackfire Torch and Black Cleaver) are almost too versatile. They offer their core scaling stat (AP and AD respevtively), CDR, Pen and HP all in one item slot with a good build path and that’s not even counting the kick-ass passives attached to each. In addition to just offering all the nice offensive stats you could want in an item, I’d argue that the HP on them is just overkill. Since health is stronger than it used to be as a defensive stat, there’s not reason for any champ NOT to rush BFT or Black Cleaver since they both offer a solid early-game bonus in damage in addition to a small amount of defence to fall back on. If that wasn’t enough both of them scale into late-game for free via Blackfire Torch’s %HP scaling and Black Cleaver’s %Armor shred.

This early-game transforming into late game scaling leads into my next sticking point, though this is more related to Blackfire Torch. Magic Resistance is much less attractive to buy in its current state. I play with a lot of players who often ask me “what do I buy for MR” because the go-to keystone item choices really aren’t that attractive with the exception of Abyssal Scepter on AP’s which lo-and-behold also offers the MPEN that everyone is so fond of these days. Early MR is automatically countered by the large amount of flat MPEN AP’s are running thanks to Runes + Scor Boots + BFT and any investment in HP scales far poorly than it should due to enemy BFT’s scaling for free against it.

While it’s nice that AP and AD DPS are no longer completely shutdown by their respective resistances, I still believe that players need to have some interaction with how their offensive and defensive stats interact with their opponents. If your opponents are stacking resistances against you, you should be able to make the choice to buy your big defensive-busting item (Last Whisper or Void Staff). If your opponents buy a defensive-busting item you should be able to hold onto some of your survivability by buying HP in addition to your resistance. Right now this interaction simply isn’t happening because of how well-rounded and attractive the stats on Penetration items are. ADs don’t lose any damage by simply building Black Cleaver and Last Whisper and AP’s don’t lose any damage by simply building Blackfire Torch, Void Staff and Abyssal Scepter. Penetration is by far the most attractive stat and DPS, Burst and Bruisers alike are stacking Pen items and scaling their Base Damages (in addition to any DPS they have gained via the AP / AD / CDR on these items) into the early-mid and late game. Players often don’t buy the big items like Infinity Edge, Sanguine Blade, Ravenous Hydra etc. because they don’t offer enough of an incentive. Why buy these items for your great AD scaling when you can just stack Pen to deal huge damage to targets with armour as well as squishies and get a whole bunch of AD from the Black Cleaver, Last Whisper etc. anyway.

At its core this problem comes from Penetration items offering enough well-rounded stats to all but eliminate the choice of scaling vs penetration that should exist. This is exacerbated by the fact that Bruisers and Brawlers scale better with Penetration than they do with other offensive stats anyway.

Now there are a slew of other little things that are affecting the wider-state of Dominion at the moment but I firmly believe this issue is at the core of what a lot of players are finding wrong with the game at the moment.


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SlasherBag

Senior Member

01-07-2013

I keep seeing warmogs, but its passive and high health seem like it will be a must buy bot and a strong pickup top for tanks/bruisers. Maybe try Overlord's Bloodmail instead if you are going to implement another high health item.


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GyjYa

Senior Member

01-08-2013

BC by itself isn't bad.

It gets problematic when you also get Last Whisper.

Put both of these items on a champ that has built-in armor penetration, and they can easily shred 100-150 armor off of a tank.

I do this with Xin Zhao every time I use him on Dominion. I use Weapon Expertise & Sunder from offense tree, and use armor pen marks & quints, which is 19 armor pen. Assume full BC stacks.

On a 200 armor target, we get:

200 * .75 (25% from BC) = 150
150 * .85 (15% from Xin Zhao's passive) = 127.5
127.5 * .6 (40% from Last Whisper) = 76.5
76.5 * .92 (8% from Weapon Expertise) = 70.38
70.38 - 34 (5 from Sunder, 19 from runes, 10 from BC) = 36.38 armor. That's basically starting levels of armor!

And that's just from using 2 items, Black Cleaver + Last Whisper. If you also use Youmuu's, subtract an additional 20 from the final result.

Of course this assumes max stacks of BC, which only happen starting on the 5th hit. But even on the 1st hit, their armor goes down to 60 (40 if using youmuu's as well).


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Rawth XI

Senior Member

01-11-2013

BFT and AP casters still feel like they have a big advantage now on Dom because:

1) Ranged always has the "safe distance" advantage vs. any melee who *must* close and take damage to deal any damage

2) Health packs return a giant amount of mana, giving casters and magic tanks huge sustain

So while BC helps AD casters for example, it doesn't feel like the "God mode item" that BFT still feels like on any caster or magic tank.

Ask yourself: On Dom, how often do you see physical tanks building BC? Now tell me how often you see magic tanks building BFT?


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AjesN7

Junior Member

01-12-2013

i feel black cleaver is fine.

the lack of a penetration aura is not that noticeable for me.

CDR aura? no.. its not needed at all and it will increase the gap from cdr dependent champions against not cdr dependant champions


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cpudemon

Senior Member

01-14-2013

I feel BC is really strong and bloated with stats, but ATM it keeps BFT in check. Yes, I am biased because I play bruisers so I'll get that out of the way. But BFT is just insane for casters in Dom, just as insane as BC so in a way it's even. Nerfing BC isn't the answer because as people are saying it's really not BC but the synergy with LW (I don't even buy LW). However, my bone to pick is how strong BFT is because of burn proc and it's bloated stats as well. I agree with the previous BFT nerf but I'm curious of why Blade Of The Fallen King was never allowed in Dom, not even before S3 started and when BC got it's buff. I can definitely see BoFT and BC being insanely strong and maybe just too insane for bruisers however I don't see how it's any more or less insane than say DFG and it's active + BFT.

Ok, I went off topic a bit there but tl;dr about BC it's fine, maybe tweak LW somehow?