Black Cleaver + Lack of Penetration Auras

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Zeiro

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Senior Member

12-21-2012

I dunno, but the new changes makes your "core BFT" costs more for very little buffs and takes out money from your "Diversify Your Build Funds™".

How much money do you get during a Dominion game? Boots, new BFT, that's already 5k. Unless you go bot (or get massive amount of kills or minions at top), you'd usually have around 10k at 20 minutes; 12k at 25 minutes.

The new things BFT have can be done by the current BFT and Codex. Which means, you could also have BFT + amor/Negatron instead of Codex, or start building Wooglet or a Sweeper. Now you're forced to build Codex, too, for your core item.

I don't mind core items, but the changes to BFT hurts itemization. I do think that BFT and (partially) Wooglet's were made to be core items to remedy what SR mechanics that doesn't work in Dominion and that's why they're so efficient.


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PoorLepRecon

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaIfhearted View Post
Cleaver seems mostly fine.
Haven't noticed the lack of the pen aura, so I assume that's fine too.

GLOBAL CDR YES PLEASE!
Would make my mages very happy not being forced to itemize crappy cdr items. Sometimes when I want to go heavy offense on Brand, I end up having to sacrifice some cdr, which really sucks.

And anyways, its pre-season, so tis the season for experimentation.
Yes because black fire torch is a horrible horrible item that no mage should ever buy.


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Cauldrath

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redenbacher View Post
I'm kind of confused at the idea that being forced to build a particular item that serves a particular purpose is a bad thing.

AP Carries on SR are forced to build Rabadon's in order to stay relevant. AD Carries are forced to build Bloodthirster (and previously, that rush was IE).

On Dominion, you've got an item specifically designed to keep casters relevant in the game mode to give them better mid-game scaling on par with bruisers and keep them relevant late game, and that's a bad thing? I don't see the difference in being forced to build BFT or being forced to build Rabadon's. What I don't like, is that the item works great for champions like Rumble and Singed who don't need that kind of help or power. There are plenty of other items to diversify your build, even if BFT is 'core'.

The same with Black Cleaver. If I'm an AD Carry, I'm building IE. It's silly if I don't, especially on Dominion where free gold reigns from the heavens. If I'm an AD Caster, I build Black Cleaver, because I don't benefit from critical strike just like AD Carries, but yet I require to get in melee range to deal my damage. There are plenty of other items to diversify your build, even if Black Cleaver is 'core'.

I think the issue there is that it's still not much of a detriment to stack cleavers. I would really like to see an explanation as to why health is on the item, and why the CDR isn't unique.
The thing about IE/Rabadons in SR is that you get a great deal more gold by the end of a SR game, when compared to a Dominion game, especially as the classes that build those. In Dominion, you need to itemize around ~10k gold, in SR, it's not that uncommon to have 6 full slots while chugging elixers if you are a fed carry. Even then, part of the goal of S3 was to make at least the IE/PD combination less strict.

Also, if you look at S2 bruiser and AP itemization, you have a lot of options to deal with a variety of situations, and you are rewarded for counterbuilding your opponent with better gold-efficiency against targets you properly counter. BFT and BC being so strong basically requires you to build those items, as they are more efficient than looking at what your opponent is building and choosing the proper counter. As their cost goes up, unless their efficiency drops enough to go below counterbuilding, less gold is available for counteringbuilding and it is later in the game before you get that option. The problem is that these items were specifically designed to be incredibly efficient, as they are there to act as a specific buff to AP casters in Dominion and AD casters in SR, so they will always be mandatory buys until other items are made to match them, or they will no longer serve their purpose.

Looking at it from this perspective, it makes the most sense to me to lower their cost (and likely the stats to match) instead of increase it, so that the classes that need the help from the item can benefit from it as soon as possible and then move on to more interesting itemization.

Are there other issues with the items? Of course, but we've gone over those numerous times already.


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Thanks Cauldrath, that highlights the situation in a different light. I didn't look at it that way.

That brings me around full circle, though. Why don't we remove the CDR from BFT and put it somewhere else? I still feel CDR should be a choice, not a consequence of simply building the strongest damage items. Reduce the AP and cost of the item, so it acts as a counter to high HP targets, and not just a big fat stat stick that everyone must buy.

What if Hextech Revolver built into an item with CDR (and no HP)? Would that be valuable?

For example, Hextech Revolver + Cloth Armor + Null Magic Mantle. Spell vamp + mitigation to improve the effectiveness of the vamp. Make the spell vamp unique, and add an interesting passive or active (since I'm drawing a blank).

What if the answer to fixing Dominion itemization was limiting the number of 'big ticket' items in favor of more mid-game itemization, to allow a player to build more smaller items over 2-3 big items with the 10-12k gold net per game of Dominion?


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konfetarius

Senior Member

12-21-2012

In Dominion, CDR is part of reaching strong mage damage itemization - going from 0 to 40% CDR is an 66% increase in damage output on your low cooldown spells. Because of higher frequency of team fights (your ultimate will be up for a lesser % of team fights than it would for an SR mage), and general difficulty of out farming everyone else (mages in SR tend to be ahead compared to Dom mages when it comes to offensive items vs. enemy offensive/defensive items), most mages can and should view CDR as their version of attack speed.

I would no more want to see CDR divorced from big ticket damage items than I want critical chance ripped from a phantom dancer. (though, perhaps, moving CDR off BFT and buffing actual dedicated CDR/AP items might not be a bad idea. BFT literally gives every offensive stat a mage wants, and a bonus one on top of it via proc. It's like if Static Shiv was merged into the Infinity Edge with some armor pen thrown in).


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Right, well, that's kind of what I'm saying. You've already got DFG as a big ticket damage item with CDR. You've got Hextech sweeper and Morellonomicon as well. Hextech Sweeper is already an underused item that gives health, AP, and CDR - just like BFT.

Well gee... if I have to choose between Hextech Sweeper and BFT, which one am I going to choose?

I would like BFT be the go-to counter for HP heavy enemies. Let CDR reside elsewhere, without removing it's necessity or clouding it's value.


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Eloquid

Senior Member

12-21-2012

CDR aura sounds like perfect fit for fast Dominion playstyle.


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R Sterling

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Senior Member

12-21-2012

My Tristana took a fat hit with the Penetration nerfs. My early game relied on the MPen and my midgame relied on the ARPen. I'm now forced to build LW early and forced to be passive early because my magic damage was nerfed (can no longer spec into both penetrations and no aura, so I have 0 MPen).


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Pulsefire Mundo

Member

12-22-2012

Nome, with Warmog's Armor being remade, is it still too strong in Dominion? After its removal we were promised another HP item, but of course it never happened. I think we need another high HP item or Warmog's re-enabled.


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moralSinistral

Member

12-22-2012

I'd like to see Warmogs make it in.
For Volibear.
Please?