Tribunal at it's best ! I challenge EVERY RED to justify this punished report card.

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OhBoyItsaMegaman

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xerox69 View Post
Hey guys, here I am, the guy who got reported and time banned from this card ^^

I want to give you more informations about what happened.

...

Yes, I mailed Riot support, still no answer from them, but I guess the time ban will disapear tomorrow and I won't have any answer.
Your case is clearly a false positive. Despite the claims of Tribunal haters, these very rarely happen. If you haven't heard from support by now, I would urge you to contact them again and say this, word-for-word:
"Someone created a thread on the NA Tribunal forums to discuss my reform card. Unlike most threads about allegedly unjustified bans, it has received an overwhelmingly positive response from the community with 28 pages in one day and +60 upvotes. Based on the community's feedback, I would like you to investigate the case and consider removing the ban from my account. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2916159"

To someone who spends 8 hours a day reading emails from banned players, this will stick out as a ticket that is not just business as usual.


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Hallows Evelynn

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by OhBoyItsaMegaman View Post
Your case is clearly a false positive. Despite the claims of Tribunal haters, these very rarely happen. If you haven't heard from support by now, I would urge you to contact them again and say this, word-for-word:
"Someone created a thread on the NA Tribunal forums to discuss my reform card. Unlike most threads about allegedly unjustified bans, it has received an overwhelmingly positive response from the community with 28 pages in one day and +60 upvotes. Based on the community's feedback, I would like you to investigate the case and consider removing the ban from my account. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2916159"

To someone who spends 8 hours a day reading emails from banned players, this will stick out as a ticket that is not just business as usual.

if it happens once it can happen twice, if it happens twice it can happen three times, if it happens three times it can happen a 4th time, and so on.

either way even one time is one to many.

but the real problem here is that there is no justification to it. its like PROVING a man who is on death row to be innocent, but still sending him the chair regardless.


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OhBoyItsaMegaman

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayrune View Post
And Riot (at least the portion in charge of tribunal) does not seem to understand that the perception being cultivated of the tribunal and it's voters, and the fact that this sort of false positive is even possible, matter considerably more than any statistic or intention they can post (after all, statistics can be easily modified by shifting what you define as a false positive, like keeping a ban that is not justified by the tribunal case because of information not in said case).
Quick, name a system where false positives aren't even possible.

(Hint: "Cancer detection", "DNA testing", and "Sentencing to death for a capital crime after years of appeals" are all incorrect answers.)


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

12-19-2012

I need to clear up a few things here that people have commented on about one of my posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PogoPogoPogoPogo View Post
Fourth, as the case is from EU West, not North America, I'm not going to bother looking at it. Tribunals for different servers are different. I'm not a part of the EUW server or the EUW Tribunal, so I don't know whether or not this is out of the ordinary.
All right, let's be clear. I could look at it if you guys really want, and I can form my own opinion as to punish/pardon based on the evidence in the case itself if you guys really want, but it doesn't matter. What is the point of the Tribunal? Specifically, what is the point of the Tribunal versus having Riot employees handle determining pardon/punish? The point is for the community to use the Summoner's Code to determine what they do/don't want in their own community.

If Riot wanted me to have a say in what gets pardoned/punished on every server, then I'd be able to go pardon/punish EUW Tribunal cases. Riot won't even let me log in on EUW with my North American user name. If I want to judge EUW, I have to be a level 20 summoner in good standing with the Tribunal on EUW. In other words, I have to be a member of the EUW community before I can have a say on what is and is not acceptable on EUW.

By looking at an EUW case and stating my opinion, I'd be doing just that--stating my opinion. It won't and shouldn't have any meaningful impact on what happens to the case, however, because I'm not a member of EUW. I wouldn't want Brazilians, Asians, or Europeans having a say in North America cases if they don't play on the NA server, and I don't want to have a say on what is and isn't acceptable in these other communities that I am not a part of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PogoPogoPogoPogo View Post
Fifth, even if everything in the reform card is completely innocent and merits a pardon, upon review, PB&J will look at additional games the OP was reported in as well pre and post game chat logs. Even if he's innocent on the reform card, it does not inherently mean the punishment was not deserved.
With this point, I was not trying to comment or explain the voting action of the Tribunal. If what is available on this case is similar to every other EUW pardon case, and there are no other punish cases on EUW that look this innocent, then obviously the Tribunal voted wrong based on the evidence they were presented.

However, just because the Tribunal voted wrong based on the evidence they were presented doesn't mean that the result is actually wrong. It is a problem with the Tribunal indeed. And unfortunately, the Tribunal doesn't always vote perfectly based on the evidence they are presented (it is extraordinarily accurate though), but you're asking Riot to review your case.

Let's say you were reported in 20 matches. The 5 randomly selected matches shown to the Tribunal are matches in which you're completely innocent, but the other 15 that the Tribunal didn't see, the player exhibits some very terrible, very punishable behavior.

What is it that you'd have Riot do?

Are they really supposed to reverse the punishment and let you go even though they KNOW you're a toxic player just because the Tribunal voted incorrectly?


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NecroticBinder

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballistixz View Post
if it happens once it can happen twice, if it happens twice it can happen three times, if it happens three times it can happen a 4th time, and so on.

either way even one time is one to many.

but the real problem here is that there is no justification to it. its like PROVING a man who is on death row to be innocent, but still sending him the chair regardless.
So... show me a system where your first sentence can ever be stopped. You can't? Well, why are we holding a video game company to a higher standard?

No, it's like well the real life example sucks! It's more like everyone disagreeing with the verdict a sports committee gives to a player but the committee hasn't seen or responded to that disagreement yet.

But yes, yay hyperbole!


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bladeweed

Senior Member

12-19-2012

yep, this is a false positive. sorry that this happened to you.

in terms of everyone saying: "the system needs to be reformed, now!" no, not necessarily. you cannot possibly design a system that is 100% perfect.

but it would be nice if Riot would take a look at cases like these and reverse them, or at least explain what the heck this person did to deserve to be "punished" (not "banned" - he got "banned" for being a multiple offender, and frankly, you don't get to the "ban" stage purely on false positives).


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Hallows Evelynn

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Methelod View Post
So... show me a system where your first sentence can ever be stopped. You can't? Well, why are we holding a video game company to a higher standard?

No, it's like well the real life example sucks! It's more like everyone disagreeing with the verdict a sports committee gives to a player but the committee hasn't seen or responded to that disagreement yet.

But yes, yay hyperbole!

there are better systems in place. there is a reason why the tribunal like system rarely(if ever) exist in other games.

sure its a genius system in that it doesnt cost the devs money for a hired staff that is assigned the task of reviewing reports, but that is why it is a horrible system.

using real life as an example again i t would be like giving a random group of 1000 ppl a unqualified title of a judge. and among those 1000 you have around 100 racist ******s that will sentence a completly innocent person to death just because of race or sexuality.

would you rather be judged by someone of high authority, qualified to be a judge, and went to law school for numerous years to become a judge or would you rather get judge by a hobo on the street that dropped out from high school whenn he was 23? exactly.

sure riot may be "more strict", but so are qualified judges that are paid and wont show bias because of the risk of losing there job..


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OhBoyItsaMegaman

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballistixz View Post
there are better systems in place. there is a reason why the tribunal like system rarely(if ever) exist in other games.
Is that really a good argument? Does the fact that other games don't do it make this a bad system? If not, you shouldn't even be bringing them up. But since you did...

In most other games, players aren't allowed to talk about their suspensions and bans on the official forums. You are only allowed to repeal the ban through official channels; your thread will likely be closed and deleted, and you may get in trouble. For example, this is part of the Code of Conduct for Blizzard's forums:

Quote:
Discussing Disciplinary Actions
This category includes:
Creating posts or threads to discuss disciplinary actions taken against a player, including chat logs and email correspondence between a player and a Game Master (GM)
Creating posts or threads to discuss disciplinary actions taken against a character or account on the forums

If a player is found to have participated in such actions, he/she will:
Be given a temporary ban from the forums, depending upon severity
By contrast, Riot actually directs you to discuss your warning on the forums and hands you the tools to do so in a constructive manner: reform cards. As a result, players have no excuse for failing to reform because they can get feedback directly from the community. Can you say the same of people who are banned from Diablo III or WoW? That doesn't sound like a better system to me. Can you say honestly that suspended D3 players probably feel better about their ban than LoL players? Do they shrug and say "Well, the ban was issued by someone of authority who was qualified to judge my behavior. I'm sure their decision was fair."?


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Criomhthann

Senior Member

12-19-2012

How does one vote punish on this?


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Ext3rmin8or

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBubbIes0 View Post
http://euw.leagueoflegends.com/tribu...e/536042/#nogo


^ Justify it !

Come on Riot, amuse me.

Wonder how long it will take for Riot to realize how pathetic tribunal is.
Wow. By that case's logic, 3/4 of the community would be banned.