Ability Synergy AMA by BergMeister

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BergMeister

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Senior Member

12-20-2012

I just deleted my entire wall of text accidently T.T

I might need to go somewhere and cry for a while.....


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The5lacker

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
A quick question, since I'd like this to be specifically addressed, and I'm curious as to how yeu'll covers it =3


Q: How much synergy between abilities on a champion's kit is "too much synergy"? Where do yeu draw the line? How do yeu avoid going too far in the first place, and how do yeu fix it once yeu've gone off the deep end?

Anyway, looking forwards to yeur answers ^.^
Good synergy is when any one ability can function on it's own, but all abilities used correct work better than the sum of their parts. Bad synergy is where each ability functions on their own, but completely independently, or if abilities only function in combination with one another. This isn't some sliding scale, it's just a general feel. Ashe has bad synergy, considering the only real synergy between her abilities is that Volley can apply Frost Shot. Xerath has bad synergy because without his Arcanopulse and Locus of Power, Mage Chains is next to useless. Shyvana has good synergy because the mobility from Dragon's Decent and Burnout work well with her close quarters combat from Twin Bite, which also triggers the on-hit effect from Flame Breath twice.


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BergMeister

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Senior Member

12-20-2012

Alright. I had a cookie, and I've collected myself. I'm going to abridge what I originally was saying.
The basic rule of thumb is that if a champion requires more than a half a minute to understand the basic premises of a champion then it is too much, and the synergy is too complicated. Having too much utility that modify other abilities is usual too much synergy unless you can cleverly modify it but that requires a lot of work and you to read Katsuni's guide word by word (your gonna need a few days a fresh can of coffee or two). For example if your Q makes you E stronger and your E blah blah blah blah blah. Brand is in my opinion the highest amount of synergy that should be in a champion. All of his abilities alter another and apply his passive, but his abilities are simple and easy to understand. The usual set up that most new champcrafters should start off with is this frame. Passive - Damage Q - Damage/Minor Utility W - Utility E - Ultimate. The utility spell will modify the Q in most cases and The utility on the W would benefit the overarching archetype that the champion is (chaser/fighter, defender, or carry). Stick with this formation until you have become very familiar with this pattern and learn how to break it the right way (think of it like music, in order to break the rules you gotta know 'em). I draw the line when the kit causes frustration beyond a reasonable amount. It eventually turns into boredom and the lack of a player base for that champion. If you go too far off the deep-end. Just trim the tree, what doesn't belong, what isn't needed, what doesn't need to be there, or best yet, which of the issues are causing the most trouble as removing it or altering it will eliminate the majority of your issues. Mind me as I went into a lot more detail, but the majority got deleted. If I didn't answer the questions to your satisfaction, please let me know.


Btw, this was supposed to be my AMA....this turned into more of a discussion than an AMA, but I guess thats alright because it provides more of a knowledge base, but to anyone reading, many of these posts are by opinion.


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The5lacker

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by BergMeister View Post
Alright. I had a cookie, and I've collected myself. I'm going to abridge what I originally was saying.
The basic rule of thumb is that if a champion requires more than a half a minute to understand the basic premises of a champion then it is too much, and the synergy is too complicated. Having too much utility that modify other abilities is usual too much synergy unless you can cleverly modify it but that requires a lot of work and you to read Katsuni's guide word by word (your gonna need a few days a fresh can of coffee or two). For example if your Q makes you E stronger and your E blah blah blah blah blah. Brand is in my opinion the highest amount of synergy that should be in a champion. All of his abilities alter another and apply his passive, but his abilities are simple and easy to understand. The usual set up that most new champcrafters should start off with is this frame. Passive - Damage Q - Damage/Minor Utility W - Utility E - Ultimate. The utility spell will modify the Q in most cases and The utility on the W would benefit the overarching archetype that the champion is (chaser/fighter, defender, or carry). Stick with this formation until you have become very familiar with this pattern and learn how to break it the right way (think of it like music, in order to break the rules you gotta know 'em). I draw the line when the kit causes frustration beyond a reasonable amount. It eventually turns into boredom and the lack of a player base for that champion. If you go too far off the deep-end. Just trim the tree, what doesn't belong, what isn't needed, what doesn't need to be there, or best yet, which of the issues are causing the most trouble as removing it or altering it will eliminate the majority of your issues. Mind me as I went into a lot more detail, but the majority got deleted. If I didn't answer the questions to your satisfaction, please let me know.


Btw, this was supposed to be my AMA....this turned into more of a discussion than an AMA, but I guess thats alright because it provides more of a knowledge base, but to anyone reading, many of these posts are by opinion.
I just realized that I actually got that inverted with my most recent champion. His Q is his most "utility" spell and his E is his primary farming tool, with his W having a touch of utility but mostly being damage. Weird.

But yes. I do think Brand is the reigning champion of Synergy. LOADS of it, but none of it is absolutely necessary to use him. Low skill floor, high as balls skill ceiling. Love it.


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Lyria Eternal

Senior Member

12-20-2012

I cannot count the number of times that I thought that I understood a champion, and I could play them well. Then I took another look at them, and found out more that I could do with them. Changing my play style and improving my game. I don't believe that a champion is too complicated if you can't understand them in half a minute.

A too complicated champion is one that has too many conditions to create a sufficient amount of damage or effect to be reasonable. As in a combination that if you mess up only gives you 50 magic damage in an AoE and slows by 20% at level 18. That is too complicated.

On the other hand a champion can also be too simple. Take Fiddlesticks for instance. His abilities are synergistic but only flow one or two ways, and it really causes people to be either bad or good with him. Simplistic champions also take more then 30 seconds to understand, but they make games easy to turn around.

-----------------------

The most important synergy of a concept has four key values; Lore-to-Ability, Ability-to-Ability, Role-to-Ability, and Role-to-Lore.

The above should be self-explanatory.

Yours in fellowship,

Flames of Terror


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Dzanio

Senior Member

12-20-2012

I would tend to agree w/ flames. You should be able to get a general idea of how to play a champ in those 30 seconds, but mastering them can take as long as you please.

Akali is an example of this; farm w/ q/auto attacks. Wait until you grab e to make harrass better, and you can combine farming and poking. Pick up w and you get a nice escape mechanism; ult is a finisher.

However the proper placement of her smokescreen, knowing when to poke w/ her q as opposed to following up w/ other abilities, and the ability to follow up with can take a lot of time to master (and she's a very face roll example of champion synergy). The idea is you should go even, or be slightly underpowered without a full grasp on how to maximize the inner workings of all your abilities, but that once you master them all you should be able to 1 v 2, 1 v 3, and penta fairly consistently (and with a large amount of effort).


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BergMeister

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Senior Member

12-20-2012

I did say general idea didn't I when i said half a minute? if not my bad.


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Lyria Eternal

Senior Member

12-21-2012

You did, and I was referring to the basics of a champion. Sure now you can jump onto LoL Wiki, and find scaling and such. However, how often does the impact of those scaling hit you until you are into laning phase with a champion you just picked up?

Every champion I think I understand the "basics" until I see, or at least heavily calculate, the effects of items upon them. So I suppose I need to add in the final, and most challenging, of the Synergy Points: Item-to-Skill.

Most don't think about it, and most don't need to with their first works. Yet a great work, a great concept is born from the Number Crunchers reading it and going, "My god this is balanced".


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BergMeister

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Senior Member

12-21-2012

Riot is still working on that to this date XD


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Dzanio

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Riot gave up on that long ago; they do things iteratively after starting at some random value and then looking at win/loss %ages.