Only _intentional_ feeding is against the Code

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NynaeveaM

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by mambawarrior0 View Post
At least that was just a warning.
That's like saying "at least you get 5 years in jail on probation for killing a man in china" even tho you've never been to asia.


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Exentrick

Senior Member

12-17-2012

I just had a huge thread about my case and got zero attention, but you don't even have one game that isn't obvious pardon...

Best of luck.


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Wheremi

Member

12-17-2012

In order then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NynaeveaM View Post
Thanks for the reply!
You're very welcome, thank you for responding in an understanding manner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NynaeveaM View Post
I have to disagree on you saying I should adjust and stop saying "gay" [of course when its not directed at anyone] just because someone reading my chat on some report on the tribunal might detect as offensive. That's how I talk with friends and when there is a screwup and yes, that's not a reason it should be discarded, but I think it is harmless and i strongly believe most people will back me up on that, and THATS a reason it should be discarded.
This is all well and good in a private place, How you talk in a private conversation is your business its certainly not my job to dictate that you can't use a potentially colorful remark in your own time.

However, This is a public game, there is very little tolerance for racism or hate speech here, and while I certainly don't think you were doing it to be rude mean or spiteful to any group or race I am simply trying to give an explanation that using the word at all like that,can be more than enough to warrant a punish in some eyes.

At the end of the day until you get to a point where either you are being pardoned an exorbitant amount of times due to getting a lot of cases, Submit a support ticket that a support staff member takes the time to look at your case and overturn the judgement, or until you are up for a permanent ban and a Rioter looks at your reports to see if you deserve a permanent ban you are at the mercy of what the community deems should be punishable or pardonable behavior.

Its not a question of what you think is minor or not, if the voters say they don't want you using a word like that, even in this simple case. Fact is you're gonna get punished for it. Does that mean thats why you did? I don't know, I can't say. I can only tell you its a "big" enough issue in my mind that it COULD have done it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NynaeveaM View Post
Also overall your reply is helpful of course, however it seems way too much like trying to create something out of nothing.
You may in fact be right. However I will explain that by pointing out the intent of my post. While you did not outright ask for it, as a frequent tribunal member, when I see someone put up a reform card usually its because they want to ask the community why they were banned. Even if not the case I think its a good place to start if only from the intention of you seemed genuinely worried about a permanent ban. This makes it most important to me as someone who does NOT want to ban every single person who gets in the tribunal. As a tribunal member its also my obligation to try and give you some direction on what you can try to fix so you DON'T end up in this situation again.

So yes, I did go in with the intention of trying to find "Something" because unless it is a false positive, it only takes one wrong thing for a 4 cases that are pardonable and 1 that is punishable to land you with another ban, and we don't want that.

I will say again at the end of the day, no I wouldn't say from this report alone that I would have outright punished you for using the word in question as you did. I probably would have skipped the case personally however as I can't in good faith call it an outright pardon and I'm generally pretty strict on choice of words like this when there are surely many other words to describe your distaste, disdain, or overall negativity about something that happened than that one three letter word.

However this isn't about how I feel about the word, or how you feel about the word. Its how the community at large, and how Riot would feel about that word. I am willing to err on the side of they would probably punish you for it due to a 0% tolerance for such speech, even in playfulness because of how easy it could be to offend someone as well as Riot's need to promote a normal respectable social environment and can't tolerate something like that most likely.

This comes down to one thing. If you don't want to take the risk of getting punished on something, no matter how small it is you have to be proactive and not do it sadly. I'm sorry if this feels harsh or too rigid to say the least but if you really want to make sure there is nothing out there that could land you back in the tribunal that is even potentially punishable, that was and is my suggestion to you to avoid the issue.


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NynaeveaM

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Yea, you are right, ultimately it's about what the community will think and I have to probably keep that in mind at all times. The frustration and irony however comes from the fact that I'm pretty sure not a single person of the 4 people who could read that word even cared or thought about it. However somewhere in the FAQ it was stated that if you see a crime that a player wasn't explicitly reported for you should still punish him.

EDIT: Since english is not my first language I actually looked up the exact meaning of gay:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay

I don't see it saying anywhere it is offensive or vulgar or anything like that. I can conclude that me using the wrong skill being "gay" could simply mean it's not normal, and by no means bad. And this doesn't just happen to be an excuse for the matter, it is also the actual intention as I was not offending anyone [player or homosexual people] with it.

EDIT2: Yea well whatever I might argue in the end that word may or may not be considered offensive by riot making any effort to justify it pointless.


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Getsuei

Senior Member

12-17-2012

In short, I would have pardoned. The "gay" word was not directed at anyone, so it isn't part of the factor in this case. If you haven't yet, you may want to email Player Support or Lyte. They may have more info on this case that what is seen(and of course, they are the ones who have the power to continue on with the appeal or keep it as a time ban.)


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Quitch

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Cases like this are making me more and more afraid of the Tribunal and the playerbase. It seems as if it's becoming ultrasensitive, as if anything you say that is at all bad will result in an inevitable permanent ban from League of Legends. I've never been punished, and in fact have always tried to be a pleasant player - but I have games where I do poorly, too. Everybody does. Cases like this being punished are frightening to me. How do I know if I won't be next? I can't. If I remember right, 1% of the player base is considered "toxic*". One person out of every ten games will be banned (and probably, inevitably permabanned). One out of 100. That's an absurdly high ban rate. I'd like to add that most players probably play this game casually, so players who stray from this are, of course, going to be deviations from the "normal." If I play this game more, even if I try my best, I'll eventually be reported enough to wind up in the Tribunal if I have a streak of bad games. I'll probably be banned.

If anybody argues that there is more to the case than what is visible, I'll have you know that is absolutely nonsensical. As a Tribunaler your job is to judge what is visible, not make up some stuff or assume that the accused is guilty from the beginning - you can't just say "they deserve it because they're in the Tribunal." I'm fully convinced that if you were the worst League player alive, you'd be permanently banned from the game within a month even if you were trying to improve and weren't bashing your teammates.

The Tribunal works the majority of the time, it's true. But without replays, "intentionally feeding" shouldn't be a valid report reason. Because the majority of the time, you can't actually discern whether or not it's intentional by chat alone - and the League community is constantly shifting towards the lines that "any feeding is intentional because you could have prevented it by playing safer." The game is becoming highly elitist in nature, and that's not something that I want to play in. It takes actual video to tell most of the time. And although Lyte has mentioned that pre and post-game chat are hard to work in (also apparently the Tribunal Elo and leaderboard are more important than a more optimal Tribunal...), the Tribunal absolutely can't function without them. Until replays and the pre/post-game chat are implemented, the Tribunal is broken and shouldn't be used.

I just see these types of threads and am terrified that, maybe, just maybe, I'll be the next person to be banned without a really good reason. And nothing Lyte or Riot will ever say can convince me otherwise any more...

*The vast majority of people who are punished are considered toxic players. In the end, "toxic" is a disgusting word to describe your customers as, but meh. They are the ones who chose the word, and they are obsessed with it when it comes to player behavior.


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dignitas Rampant

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by NynaeveaM View Post
I agree only partly. Last time I wrote a ticket I got a copy paste answer but I replied to it and the guy explained politely their policy to me. I've decided I won't stop bugging them now, I'll keep writing support tickets if I have to. I love this game the energy invested in this is worth it, since I think it might help for future cases of other players as well.
This is true. You have to be persistent but polite. Don't be rude or its only going to result in them closing you case. I'm one of the more "strict" judges on this site and I gotta say, I would have almost certainly Pardoned it. There were a few moments where you were a bit mean, but you saying "gay" is no more insulting than me saying "****" after I die. If you had gone a bit more slur-based, I would have Punished, but for the most part I didn't see too much here to be offended by.


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NynaeveaM

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rampant Idiocy View Post
This is true. You have to be persistent but polite. Don't be rude or its only going to result in them closing you case. I'm one of the more "strict" judges on this site and I gotta say, I would have almost certainly Pardoned it. There were a few moments where you were a bit mean, but you saying "gay" is no more insulting than me saying "****" after I die. If you had gone a bit more slur-based, I would have Punished, but for the most part I didn't see too much here to be offended by.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quitch View Post
Cases like this are making me more and more afraid of the Tribunal and the playerbase. It seems as if it's becoming ultrasensitive, as if anything you say that is at all bad will result in an inevitable permanent ban from League of Legends. I've never been punished, and in fact have always tried to be a pleasant player - but I have games where I do poorly, too. Everybody does. Cases like this being punished are frightening to me. How do I know if I won't be next? I can't. If I remember right, 1% of the player base is considered "toxic*". One person out of every ten games will be banned (and probably, inevitably permabanned). One out of 100. That's an absurdly high ban rate. I'd like to add that most players probably play this game casually, so players who stray from this are, of course, going to be deviations from the "normal." If I play this game more, even if I try my best, I'll eventually be reported enough to wind up in the Tribunal if I have a streak of bad games. I'll probably be banned.

If anybody argues that there is more to the case than what is visible, I'll have you know that is absolutely nonsensical. As a Tribunaler your job is to judge what is visible, not make up some stuff or assume that the accused is guilty from the beginning - you can't just say "they deserve it because they're in the Tribunal." I'm fully convinced that if you were the worst League player alive, you'd be permanently banned from the game within a month even if you were trying to improve and weren't bashing your teammates.

The Tribunal works the majority of the time, it's true. But without replays, "intentionally feeding" shouldn't be a valid report reason. Because the majority of the time, you can't actually discern whether or not it's intentional by chat alone - and the League community is constantly shifting towards the lines that "any feeding is intentional because you could have prevented it by playing safer." The game is becoming highly elitist in nature, and that's not something that I want to play in. It takes actual video to tell most of the time. And although Lyte has mentioned that pre and post-game chat are hard to work in (also apparently the Tribunal Elo and leaderboard are more important than a more optimal Tribunal...), the Tribunal absolutely can't function without them. Until replays and the pre/post-game chat are implemented, the Tribunal is broken and shouldn't be used.

I just see these types of threads and am terrified that, maybe, just maybe, I'll be the next person to be banned without a really good reason. And nothing Lyte or Riot will ever say can convince me otherwise any more...

*The vast majority of people who are punished are considered toxic players. In the end, "toxic" is a disgusting word to describe your customers as, but meh. They are the ones who chose the word, and they are obsessed with it when it comes to player behavior.
Thanks for the replies you pretty much say exactly what I am trying to. Though I wouldn't say straight out "Tribunal shouldn't be used". It's useful and it's good people realize its flaws. However it REALLY needs more assistance in the form of support staff checking even less serious report in order to work properly because it is unacceptable that justice is
being served mostly, but then sometimes it's hitting innocent people.

I want to add that whatever I might have said earlier should not be misunderstood. No single word or phrase in this thread has ever meant to insulting in any way. I might also say that this three letter word is being used quite frequently by someone like videogamedunkey (http://www.youtube.com/user/videogamedunkey) in something along the lines of "why does he die? cause Zed is GAY" (not exact quote but people who watch dunkey will know what I mean) and he is also completely harmless and sarcastic (as in almost every single video he has ever made). It's just his style to act like that, in a more obvious way than me.
Dunkey was recently featured by Riot with one on his videos being displayed during World Championship breaks.


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Getsuei

Senior Member

12-18-2012

NynaeveaM, you can also trying sending in a single email to Lyte. Just be polite like you have been =)


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NynaeveaM

Senior Member

12-18-2012

I did that 3 hours ago Thanks for the information