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@Morello, can you explain the design philosophy used for nerfing champions?

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ploki122

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Morello:
Burden of proof is on the state. Show that pattern if you would.


Actually it's been mentioned multiple times by different Rioters (designers and QA both), that you aim for a release champion to be OP so that, although indirectly, it sells more (ok, the right more is "it sees more plays", but in the end it comes down to the same result (but different goal, I know)).


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Pilige

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Morello:
No, it's a good question - I think about this a lot. I'd like them to be good because it's a new way to experience the game that might not have to be fundamentally broken. It's one of those problems that has low impact now, but would let us make the game better if we can sit down and tackle it. It's been tough to justify, to myself, prioritizing it over the other things we've been working on.


I have a question that relates to this and has bothered me for well over a year. What do you guys categorize Gangplank as? He has the kit of a melee carry, yet you guys tried to balance him to the standards of other bruisers. I love Gangplank as a champion since the day I started playing, but all the changes you have made for him since the removal of the deny mechanic have made him better and worse in the same breath.

As far as the deny part goes, that mechanic was toxic and needed to go. But the other changes you made ( his passive, balance on his ult, mana costs to parrrley, nerfs to items he relied on, etc. ) have really left him feeling very "meh". I love to pick him up in unranked play, but in ranked I have no real reason to chose him over Jayce or Nocturne or Hecarim. You guys really seem to have balanced him to be a bruiser when he just not have the kit or stats for it. He has always felt like a melee carry. And nowadays, he's just not as "piratey" as he used to.


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Sabunn

Senior Member

12-19-2012

@morello

I made a list of champions that i truly believe that deserve to looked at abit more with some reasoning. Now i know its long list and i dont blame you if you dont read it.

Akali- Akali is meant to be a feared assasin, and for a long time we saw akali dominating solo queue, but with the release of diana she has been completely outshined. Diana does what akali can and more. She has an aoe that allows her to farm safely in any lane. She has great CC with her W. At the current state i feel like that Akali is nothing more than a counterpick. I do believe that she is a good champion but is outshined by Diana in just about every way.

Alistar- I have mixed feelings about Alistar. A great teamfight champion but with the current state of the jungle, Alistar is just too slow. He cannot compete with champions like Amumu who do nearly the same job. Alistar support can also be shut down hard. I feel like a slight buff to his passive/and or heal will make him a viable jungler and/or support

Annie- She is good but like akali just gets outshined. There are champions with better stuns/similar damage than annie. There is really nothing different about her and i dont see any reason to use her (other then her great skins) She might need a slight rework with her e. I dont feel like its neccesary for anything other then getting her stun up. she dies too fast for that to even help her in any way.

Ashe- Great ultimate, decent slows, ok damage, no escape. This is Ashe in a nutshell. A champion that stays relevant for her great iniate. Her lane phase is painfull. any aggresive support will force her out of lane constantly and without jungle pressure she can't win a lane. Her passive is good for level 1, but not usefull for the rest of the game. Because of the lack of escape she is forced to run cleanse. Once cleanse is down she will die instantly in teamfights unless the team does a great job of kiting for her. In a teamfight
Ashe is lucky to get off multiple volleys in a teamfight. I hope to see a rework to her passive. Giving her some kind of tenacity when she lands a volley or something along those lines.

Blitzcrank- One of my least favorite champions in the game. Very un fun to play against and his hook is game breaking. I would hope you nerf the range and buff the cool down. Make it shorter distance and a shorter cool down. Wouldn't break the champion but would make it easier to lane against.

Brand- I don't like the randomness of Brand's ultimate. His kit flows well but, you cant rely on his ult to bounce properly. If it completely misses the ad you pretty much lose the team fight. Id be fine with him if you fixed the random bounce. Would be viable if fixed

Darius- Just an un fun champion to play against. Takes very little skill to play and his kit just brings out boring games. Take out the slow on his W/ and or nerf his passive/ and or Make his ultimate only reset when he has maximum stacks of his passive. Any of these would really take some of the un fun out.

Fiora- Melee ad carrys :/. Not good in the current meta. Might was well remove this champion from the game. Unless extremely fed shes extremely useless

Galio- Galio is just a boring champion. doesn't bring any dynamic to the game.

Gangplank- Very boring kit. I hope you rework his kit as its just not viable. Before his nerf he was extremely overpowered. now? lol.

Garen- Took his great early game away and didn't fix his late game. One of the most useless/if not most useless late game champion

Heimerdinger- Glad to see he is getting a rework. If you didn't fight at his turrets he is just pretty useless.

Karma- Also glad to see she is getting some changes as well. Maybe make her more like a soraka. I hope you change her slow. either change it or give her a new ability because its just a wast of mana/mantra.

LeBlan- No late game. I wouldn't mind seeing a nerf to her early game for a better late game

Malzahar- Malzahar has an outdated kit His ultimate really needs a change. If his ultimate changed to (summons a large voidling that and suppresses his target, that would make him viable.

Master Yi- Ap Yi has burst onto the competitve scene and im glad. But again i say the Melee AD carry meta just doesn't exsist

Nasus- Don't ever see this champion, and for good reason. His slow is really the only thing he brings to the table. His e is pretty useless unless they stand in it.. and it doesnt really do much damage. Unless he gets a crazy amount of farm on his q, hes pretty useless.

Nautilus- Out shined by blitz in every way, His clear time in the jungle was never fast and he cant be played as a support. He might need some changed in his kit. Idk if that would even help.

Renekton- Good early game but no scaling to the late game. Unless extremely fed his late game is just to tank damage. He would be a great champion if he actually scaled.

Sion. Glad to see a rework. In my opinion make him a full ap carry and change his ult to something that fits an ap carry.

Teemo- Just remove this champion from the game plzzzz.

Udyr- Gets kited way to easily and he cant top lane anymore after the huge turtle stance
nerfs. His jungle is outclassed by many and really has to get close to do anything


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PowerSmoker

Senior Member

12-19-2012

to be honest . all these new items had to be balanced around the champions . so they nered the champions .


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WhisperPan

Junior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Sabunn:
@morello
Brand- I don't like the randomness of Brand's ultimate. His kit flows well but, you cant rely on his ult to bounce properly. If it completely misses the ad you pretty much lose the team fight. Id be fine with him if you fixed the random bounce. Would be viable if fixed

Galio- Galio is just a boring champion. doesn't bring any dynamic to the game.

LeBlanc- No late game. I wouldn't mind seeing a nerf to her early game for a better late game

Malzahar- Malzahar has an outdated kit His ultimate really needs a change. If his ultimate changed to (summons a large voidling that and suppresses his target, that would make him viable.



i can't say much for the other champions you listed because i don't play them or I agree. but with these i just can't see how you can say these things.

Brand - the randomness of his ult is the whole point. if it could somehow always hit x person, it would be way too much damage. cast at the guy you want hurt, then break him with your abilities or with your team.

Galio - no dynamic? his wind move increases mov. speed right? gives that chaser a push to get the kill. his ult is a taunt. taunts kill enemy teams and saves teamates if used right. his moves are meant to buff allies and deal okay damage, not totally obliterate the enemy without a second thought.

LeBlanc - no late game? stack that ap and watch the damage go. sure you're squishy as hell, but she makes up for that with good ap ratios. the only real problem i see is that you kind of have to rely on your team for some cc, otherwise you're golden

Malz - dude, what? his ultimate is just fine as is, you have time what your doing to get the best damage out of it. you want a minion? set up your passive before you unleash your r.

Edit:Just saw :Teemo- Just remove this champion from the game plzzzz.
Why? hes not op. if you feed him, you will die but thats your fault not teemo. his mushrooms are like wards, and only a handful of champions have abilites like wards. if you hate him so much, learn to counter him


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GoldyBoi

Junior Member

12-19-2012

http://youtu.be/Wz7FHiSZb2U


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RamenBLD

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Morello, I was wondering if there will ever be a buff for Urgot.

As you know, Urgot is one of the most underplayed champions in league. However, I think with certain buffs, he can be viable and "fun" to play in non-AI situations. Currently, certain minor buffs may make a difference with him, which includes:

1) Add some type of +MR/level
2) Slightly larger range of his ult at levels 1 and 2 of his ult.
3) Maybe a possible fix where he can actually Q on the move.

He is a great champ, and I hope something gets done for him soon.


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Dunderdase

Member

12-19-2012

Reposting.

Here are a few directives:
- Make farming effective for melee champions. There isn't enough to kill.
If you build a tiamat you can farm faster but there isn't enough farm on the map to go with it.
- Give us a dorans shield for carries. Make it more effective on melee champions.
There is no way for poppy, for example, to survive in a 2v2 bot lane situation since the ranged harass is to strong.
- Give us higher tankyness on melee champions but less or no CC.
Melee champions need to survive longer but in order to actually become carries their damage needs to scale with items and they shouldn't be effective without them.
We wan't a carry. Not a jax or a xin zhao. Give us a bash instead of a stun or slow.
- Give us a blink to cope with enemy flash and a way to escape.
A ranged carry can simply flash backwards and get free damage on you. There is no way to safely farm the lanes alone without blinks, tp scrolls or proper trees.
- Give us real ilussions. Why are you afraid of microing? This is a competetive video game - Skill is to be required.
Some heros in dota use illusions to deal their damage. This is a good way to avoid BKB in league if only riot wouldn't be so scared of proper ilussions.
- Let us stack the jungle camps.
To give the melee champions something to farm with their tiamats.
- Make the map bigger.
To room more jungle creeps.
- Give us dodge and mana-burn.
RNG is to be high risk, high reward and nothing else. There should be a way for a melee carry to kill a caster like veigar.
- Give us uphill to ease turteling and stop snowballing.
You shouldn't have to pick Anivia to be able to turtle.


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XxxLumberJackxxX

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Morello:
Sure!

Nasus [I]Unsure - might have fatal flaws, might just be because overtuned metagolems.[/I

Warwick Actually a pretty good jungler here - not too worried.

Poppy Blue Yordle needs rework badly

Tryndamere A little on the synergy problem, but mostly this is about melee AD. Tryn's kit would e most likely to be good if melee AD were usable.

Karma Being reworked

Ashe Unsure. Might need a bit of love, but not a rework.

Jarvan IV Whoa, this guy's a beast right now. I think he has some design flaws, though.

Fiddlesticks Good jungler now for something different.

Veigar Good at being a burst mage, and has 2 ults (R and W). I don't think he's as bad as people make him out to be.

Tristana Likely needs something, unsure though.

Sion Needs rework.



You made my day. TY.
My only follow up is that I really really want J4s ult looked at in regards to unit collision being too easy to grab these days (ala PD) completely negating his ult without even using an ability cooldown!
Also I think Ashe's problem is a lack of synergy in her passive with the rest of her kit. Continue being awesome please!


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Nightphazon

Senior Member

12-20-2012

Morello i hope i catch ur attention, anything about renekton?, theres a couple things that really hinder his gameplay, like the self stun on his W or his really bad scaling (prob worst late game) or his very UP passive? i believe that fury needs a way to be easily obtained in high levels to increase renekĀ“s usefulness