@Morello, can you explain the design philosophy used for nerfing champions?

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CooLTanG

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Master Recruiter

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
No, it's a good question - I think about this a lot. I'd like them to be good because it's a new way to experience the game that might not have to be fundamentally broken. It's one of those problems that has low impact now, but would let us make the game better if we can sit down and tackle it. It's been tough to justify, to myself, prioritizing it over the other things we've been working on.
idk if I'd even enjoy the game much more without melee type carries in the game. Tanky dps so BORING to me, I mean sure ok, I can build tanky and deal crazy amounts of damage, physical and magical, only because I build HP/AR/MR (aka I'm darius), imo is a flawed design since its fine to deal damage, but without having to build damage whatsoever just seems wrong.

Especially those glass cannons melees that build damage purely to kill the player (armorpen, %hp, w/e) will still lose vs that. Especially since those tanky dps get so many free stats along with CC, and atk speed slows especially. Just to name a few:

Darius:
- pull, move speed slow, atk speed slow, %armorpen passive, move speed buff, magic dmg dot, true dmg ult + refreshes

Lee Sin:
- atk speed, gap closer+%dmg of missing hp, aoe atk speed slow & movespeed slow, lifesteal, spellvamp, armor

Rengar:
- atk speed, armor/mr, % heal, slow/root, +constant damage from bush @ top lane makes it real hard to lane vs.

Olaf:
- upto 100% atk speed passive, atkdmg (which scales more based on total hp) +lifesteal+spellvamp, range slow, true damage, armorpen ult & mr/armor


Lets compare Trynd with these shall we:

Passive: 35% crit chance based on fury amount,

Q
: 25ad up to 60ad, a 300heal (which nearly every skill in this game deals more than that, + lose all fury so bye bye 35% crit chance)

W: -80AD reduction + a chance to have 60% slow, AOE style, does NO damage
-Great ability, cept 14 second cooldown that doesn't go down based on points!

E: Gap closer but small AOE spin size, also deals physical, reduces cd of this ability if crit with auto-attack.
-Great ability if it dealt its original magic damage again, or nearly double the damage of the spin in AD

R:
Immune to die for 5 sec, has a 0.5 sec activation time so can't time it perfectly anyways, can't get GA since u can cast R when GA rezzing, and gives fury stacks which is mediocre since u'll prob be near full stacks before casting it
-Ignite kills you afterwards, and pretty stupid having to take cleanse just for ignite, not cc effects

To summarize:
+ad, +crit, slow, weak ad reduction compared to an atk speed slowing effect and on a longer cooldown than those atk speed slow effects


Yi nearly has it worse in some situations, but at least once he gets going it can usually train through the enemies, and not completely stomped by armor alone.


I also don't understand why u guys are worrying about Rengar & Diana and discussing how bad you nerfed them, ok sure u nerfed them, prob too much, but what about the other 10+ champs u nerfed outta existence.....


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proEE

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12-19-2012

I feel that ashe's W/volley needs to be aoe, not the first target proc. Its too unconsistent compared to other adc's poke spells. And so maybe then you could change the cdr since it has a small one.
Her hawkshot also needs a change, CD is way too long and the vision seems sketchy when flying to tatgeted location


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OneBigBugga

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12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Not until after the holidays, sad to say.
If you ask me.. Diana is fine. She still hits like a ****ing truck.


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Insharai

Member

12-19-2012

I'm glad that I found a link to this post. The only thing that really kills diana is the nerf on her ult's range.

I understand your trouble with trying to contain her though.
Try nerfing her passive; the games that I carried hard weren't because I could assassinate everyone on their team, they were because I used my mid game advantage to push all of the enemies towers down.

Instead of decreasing the range on her cc, maybe turn it into a knock-up, that way the unfortunate person on the receiving end has a chance of getting away because they are further away.

I think that there should be some sort of video on how to deal with her, an assassin is like a thief. If you give them an opportunity then of course they're going to wreck you, but if the enemy team groups up it's hard for her to burst them down. She is more of a 1v3 champion as opposed to Kitty (Katarina) who can 1v5 when fed.


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Vulking

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12-19-2012

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Originally Posted by Na Koa Ikaika View Post
If you ask me.. Diana is fine. She still hits like a ****ing truck.
After seeing how she cant even hit monsters with her shield do to the shortened radius vs her longer AA I say she need some help, is like the balance team didn't tested that nerf at all, for example, she cant use her shield against Vilemaw in TT because the orbs cant reach him.


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Skaed

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Jax is a fighter, and the distinction is the tools we let him have - things like a stun and beefiness (as well as non-DPS build paths that make sense) make him a fighter. I'm actually worried that by making those guys so good, we can't make glass cannon melee good.
How is Jax not a melee carry? He does essentially the same damage as Trynd or Yi, and he's a lategame monster that carries games.

To my mind, the distinction between a fighter and a melee carry is that melee carries build (almost) pure damage while fighters build maybe half and half, or items that have a mix of offensive and defensive stats such as Wits End, Atmas, or Hexdrinker. Under those criteria, Jax is a melee carry, its just that he's apparently the only one allowed to be viable. He has enough defensive abilities built into his kit that he doesn't need to build defensive items, which is the theory behind Tryndamere, its just that those 5 seconds of glory aren't enough anymore.

I see two solutions...you could buffs melee carries' defensive abilities to the point where they can survive long enough to deal sustained damage in teamfights, or make some really powerful melee-only items based on carry stats (crit, attack speed). Otherwise there's no way melee AD carries will be equally viable compared to ranged AD carries or bruisers.

Look at any balanced MMO...melee characters have to have some huge survivability advantages, even if they have equal damage, to keep up with ranged characters.


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Dantone

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Morello I asked this on twitter, but didn't get a response. It seemed pretty relevant to this thread, so I figured I would ask here:

I'm wondering how manaless champions are balanced, as they can freely spam abilities in lane. What's the trade off for them?

For example, if I lane as Lux against a Kat, my Q does just as much damage as hers. Yet if she can use her Q every time it's off cooldown (8-10 seconds), meanwhile my Q has a longer cooldown and if I use it every time I can, I'll run out of mana pretty quick.

There are obviously more factors here: Both attacks do more damage if the mark is consumed, Lux's Q is a snare, Kat's ability is targeted and furthermore can potentially bounce from the closest minion all the way to Lux, etc. I'm choosing to ignore those factors and look at the math in it's simplest form.

I'm not even arguing that manaless/energy champions are unbalanced, I'm just wondering HOW they are balanced. Thanks


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CommissarTaco

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12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
He's a big problem to me, because he exemplfies metagolem play - ie either he's straight stronger than you and always wins, or he's weaker than you and does nothing. Irelia and Jax suffer from this too.

It's a bigger issue to me overall, but not as high on the priority list (some others need the design attention first).
This just seems a little off, though - most people's complaints about Jax and Irelia center around their ability to come back from breaking even or worse in lane and still obliterate the carries. I can't remember a game that I've been in where Jax or Irelia did "nothing." I'm not saying either is OP, but they are forgiving of bad early play.


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CommissarTaco

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12-19-2012

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Sure!

Nasus [I]Unsure - might have fatal flaws, might just be because overtuned metagolems.[/I

Warwick Actually a pretty good jungler here - not too worried.

Poppy Blue Yordle needs rework badly

Tryndamere A little on the synergy problem, but mostly this is about melee AD. Tryn's kit would e most likely to be good if melee AD were usable.

Karma Being reworked

Ashe Unsure. Might need a bit of love, but not a rework.

Jarvan IV Whoa, this guy's a beast right now. I think he has some design flaws, though.

Fiddlesticks Good jungler now for something different.

Veigar Good at being a burst mage, and has 2 ults (R and W). I don't think he's as bad as people make him out to be.

Tristana Likely needs something, unsure though.

Sion Needs rework.
Ashe is really fine, mostly. Trist could use lower mana costs. The refresh on her W isn't as usual as it should be.


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FrznTear

Member

12-19-2012

morello-kun, do you think oracles elixer was nerfed too hard? No one buys it anymore. Or are we of the opinion that pink wards are healthier?

is it difficult to keep adc's balanced? they need to have a similiar power level so balance seems precarious and a small change can make a character healthy such as the wonderful cast time reduction on mf and her buff to the passive that gives her a niche in mobility.

is the philosophy behind adc now about giving them a unique role to fill? The last updates seem to suggest so with the as debuff removal on Ezreals essence flux he no longer can sit still and win trades making him play as intended, someone who excels when successfully utilizing positioning. Graves got the nerf to the damage on his buckshot but made it better close range, also giving him a fun role as an in your face kind of guy.

i remember a thread where twitch's q was going to give him bonus stacks on his next attack intead of an attack speed buff, making him have a surprise burst damage combo instead of being a fricking stealth assassiny character that excels in sustained fights.

characters with depressing mid games should get a syndra-like passive to make their level 9 and 13 cool.

i am talking 'bout you tristana, other adc have spells to cast to make them useful in fights before they have a build.