@Morello, can you explain the design philosophy used for nerfing champions?

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TalkGibberish

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Just a small thing about the Heimer

I understand why his W feels like it doesn't have much interaction. It doesn't, at least, at its basic function of a "skill".

But, One of my favorite gameplay moments as a Heimer is the "3-Minion-Dance" you play with the Opposing laner. It almost becomes your own little mini-game.

Timing your auto-attacks to kill the 3rd minion standing between you and your enemy is fun.

Finding odd angles where you can hit them from.

It can be so satisfying pulling off some of the clever harass...

Opposing him, it could get frustrating. I can see that. But it also creates some good interactions in how you play verses him as opposed to other laners. And late game, its just fire and forget whenever some one is close... but early game laning... SOO rewarding


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DanmakuHeaven

Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MPonder View Post
I played Dota since Medusa had tornado. Dude, as far as I remember, I never saw melee carries in competitive play in Dota, it was always 3 top, 1 mid and 1 bottom. The 3 tops were most of the time champions with stuns and tankers, like Leviathan, Centaur, Sven, etc. In bottom and middle there were an ADC like Drow, Sniper or Nevermore, and a mage with CC or pusher.

One reason that melee carries did good in normal games, it was because of the itens like Basher and BKB. And if you think this kind of thing is balanced, I just hope you never work or own Riot. The other reason is because APC. APC at Dota don't scale. Look at Zeus, useless late game, but a **** to deal with early game. Same for Ezalor. And the last reason I can think of, it is the itens, itens scale more in Dota, in LoL, itens make you champions stronger the way he is already, I'm talking about sinergy, like Trinity Force on Irelia/Jax.

Sorry, but something like Void I would never ever want to see in LoL. You think that's balanced, you think Lyncanthrope, SA, and others are balanced. Just put a basher and a satanic on this guys and see.



Ok, play a game with just boots and pots. I would comment more about this, but after this, it really doesn't worth it.



I could say to you the same.

you did never see a spectre am void pl sk as carry? I PITY YOU


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Dunderdase

Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MPonder View Post
I played Dota since Medusa had tornado. Dude, as far as I remember, I never saw melee carries in competitive play in Dota, it was always 3 top, 1 mid and 1 bottom. The 3 tops were most of the time champions with stuns and tankers, like Leviathan, Centaur, Sven, etc. In bottom and middle there were an ADC like Drow, Sniper or Nevermore, and a mage with CC or pusher.

One reason that melee carries did good in normal games, it was because of the itens like Basher and BKB. And if you think this kind of thing is balanced, I just hope you never work or own Riot. The other reason is because APC. APC at Dota don't scale. Look at Zeus, useless late game, but a **** to deal with early game. Same for Ezalor. And the last reason I can think of, it is the itens, itens scale more in Dota, in LoL, itens make you champions stronger the way he is already, I'm talking about sinergy, like Trinity Force on Irelia/Jax.

Sorry, but something like Void I would never ever want to see in LoL. You think that's balanced, you think Lyncanthrope, SA, and others are balanced. Just put a basher and a satanic on this guys and see.



Ok, play a game with just boots and pots. I would comment more about this, but after this, it really doesn't worth it.



I could say to you the same.
Lycan is pretty worthless right now. Void isn't picked as much anymore. Even so, The best ranged carry in DotA is banned from Captains Mode because of how broken she is so your point isn't even valid here. You think Lycan which is never picked anymore is overpowered.

You never saw melee carries in DotA? Did you miss the international? AM was a great pick both this and the last international. Jugger almost won Na'Vi the international. Naix has always been a great pick and the only reason you build a basher on him is because he has no blink and that's also the reason he's put in the jungle instead of a lane.

Yeah there are no carries that scale with ability power in DotA how is this related? Their damage still scales with stats and they are even better late game in DotA than in league because you have utility items to build on them. The reason they don't scale with Ability Power is because they aren't carries in DotA. They are nukers, supports and pushers.

But sure, launch dota and build your basher on void and lycan, enjoy getting laughed at.
While you're at it you might just pick Sniper, one of the worst heroes in the game.

The only reason Sven and Magnus are meta right now is because of how they overbuffed Sven.
Before trying to talk about balance issues in DotA you should at least follow the competitive scene.


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Dues Pater

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Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Sure!

Nasus [I]Unsure - might have fatal flaws, might just be because overtuned metagolems.[/I

Warwick Actually a pretty good jungler here - not too worried.(some of his kit is out dated compared to newer champions. His blood lust doesnt reveal stealth targets below 50 percent and his ganks are a lack luster pre six and kinda medicore with ult)

Poppy Blue Yordle needs rework badly

Tryndamere A little on the synergy problem, but mostly this is about melee AD. Tryn's kit would e most likely to be good if melee AD were usable.To much champions with cc and doesnt fit in this current meta i think you should give him some changes like u guys gave to jax)

Karma Being reworked

Ashe Unsure. Might need a bit of love, but not a rework.

Jarvan IV Whoa, this guy's a beast right now. I think he has some design flaws, though.

Fiddlesticks Good jungler now for something different. (needs to auto attack after he finishes uses his drain)

Veigar Good at being a burst mage, and has 2 ults (R and W). I don't think he's as bad as people make him out to be.

Tristana Likely needs something, unsure though.

Sion Needs rework.
fixed


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Vulking

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Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinDelMarr View Post
Do melee glass cannons (like Fiora, Master Yi, Tryndamere) have to exist? Like is there an omnipotent rule that this type of class can never be removed? A class with what seems to be so many underlying problems. Do you believe their problems can be fixed, is it worth the effort? Would changing Fiora, Master Yi, Tryndamere into fighters, along the direction of Jax in some regards ruin the diversity and customization we all love? Am I asking too many questions? This seems to be more relevant to another Thread (something I would be very interested in having) so I won't continue after this. I just can't shake the idea of Jax being a strengthened carry. To each his own
No, it's a good question - I think about this a lot. I'd like them to be good because it's a new way to experience the game that might not have to be fundamentally broken. It's one of those problems that has low impact now, but would let us make the game better if we can sit down and tackle it. It's been tough to justify, to myself, prioritizing it over the other things we've been working on.
This is something I would love to see, as I see it, Jax follow the same patterns as a melee ADC (start weak and start building momentum as he farm up) without all the melee ADC issues, maybe, if as posted by KevinDelMarr, those Melee ADC were adjusted to work like Jax (being really really strong late game without reaching full ADC power level. would fix all the inherent issues of Melee ADC (need to be way to strong to be effective).


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Silanthous

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Senior Member

12-19-2012

Morello, i've been wondering for a while about Elise. I love her play style mid or top lane, don't like her much in jungle. the issue i find most disconcerting about her is she is a AP assassin who can only engage.
Most other assassin types can use their ability's to escape, but in most cases Elise can't. I've played her a lot, and for more than a month i spectated every ranked game she was selected in, and all i ever saw was early 1v1 domination followed by team fight failure. one game i saw a 7-2-3 elise become 7-9-4 once team fighting started.
I think the crucial issue is that rapel can't target friendly minions or champions meaning she is forced to burn flash/ghost or just slowly run. she is very gankable and after engaging on a target in team fights she usually gets easially focused down without killing her mark due to nor being able to really use her W attacks.
other fighters/assassins all have escape mechanics that don't need enemy targets. Tyrn, Akali, Jax, Talon, Shaco, Kassidin, Kha'zix, Rengar, Nidalee, Katarina...
i have never seen a Elise actually perform well late game unless everyone on her team was also fed. a bit more options on movement could seriously help her out.
what are your thoughts on this?


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Swift Scout

Junior Member

12-19-2012

Morello, are we going to see a Teemo buff after his massive nerf?


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MPonder

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Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunderdase View Post
Lycan is pretty worthless right now. Void isn't picked as much anymore. Even so, The best ranged carry in DotA is banned from Captains Mode because of how broken she is so your point isn't even valid here. You think Lycan which is never picked anymore is overpowered.

You never saw melee carries in DotA? Did you miss the international? AM was a great pick both this and the last international. Jugger almost won Na'Vi the international. Naix has always been a great pick and the only reason you build a basher on him is because he has no blink and that's also the reason he's put in the jungle instead of a lane.

Yeah there are no carries that scale with ability power in DotA how is this related? Their damage still scales with stats and they are even better late game in DotA than in league because you have utility items to build on them. The reason they don't scale with Ability Power is because they aren't carries in DotA. They are nukers, supports and pushers.

But sure, launch dota and build your basher on void and lycan, enjoy getting laughed at.
While you're at it you might just pick Sniper, one of the worst heroes in the game.

The only reason Sven and Magnus are meta right now is because of how they overbuffed Sven.
Before trying to talk about balance issues in DotA you should at least follow the competitive scene.
I said played, past. I stopped a long time ago at Dota 1, with release Huskarr, something like that. I really don't give a **** anymore for Dota.

I used to do so much gold with Lyncan with his wolves, I put them to patrol the neutral and also getting the gold in lane. While ppl were finishing their first big item, I already had madness, MKB and Treads.

I don't know how it is now, but if something is or not is been played at Dota 2. It is most because of the itens. This threads is about nerfs on champions, not to talk about itens. Even more to talk about the OPness itens that Dota has. BKB, imunity to magic, for something like 10 sec, an item that gives you almost 200% life steal. Hard CC on itens, like basher, I dunno if there is Guinso yet at Dota 2.


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Ginga

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Senior Member

12-19-2012

@Morello: If you're still here.


Explain to us your justification for ****ing over AP mid Zyra please?


Support Zyra was OP, AP mid Zyra was average. I can understand nerfing Support Zyra, but why give the finger to AP mid players too?!


Here is my request. Revert your nerfs. And then nerf Support Zyra without having any effect on AP mid Zyra. PLEASE



You even replied to THIS thread and said you'd actually talk about it. But you didn't, and looking at her nerfs this patch, you clearly didn't think about nerfing her without affecting AP Mid Zyra.


PS - on a completely related note, I plan on spending 6300 IP on buying Elise....is she OP? Are you going to nerf her anytime soon or is she fine?


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Cooldude1234

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Statikk might be posting more, but let me update on the details that are concerning in a TLDR sense;

Diana: We overnerfed here, agreed. Will fix next patch.

Rengar: We need to tear him down a bit to build him back up - someone earlier in this thread mentioned that he has too many things to be both balanced and fun, and that's the same problem we detect. There will be additional changes next patch.
While I agree the Diana nerfs were to much...Why no earth is she getting buffed so quickly? Other champs have been trash for a long time with no love (Urgot, Soraka, Rammus just to name a few). Heck you nerfed Xin into the ground and it took about a year for him to get some love. What makes Diana so special? Is there a new skin coming out for her or something?