@Morello, can you explain the design philosophy used for nerfing champions?

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Teemonator

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Greetings!

I posted a thread idea in the Champion feedback forums. Here is a link to the post!

Champion Feedback: (Click & Vote Here)


My goal here is to try to help Rengar with his role as a Jungler, and add additional reason to buy his Bonetooth Necklace.

Thank you for your time!


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Thane Soren

Recruiter

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by VictusOmnis View Post
Just what is your stance on Rengar? Just how do you decide on what nerfs and buffs are appropriate?

You nerfed his damage output so he can't be played as a heavy-hitting bruiser if he chooses to double q.

You nerfed his ultimate so now it's worse than twitches stealth which is NOT an ultimate.

You nerfed his sustain which makes him harder to be an offtank, jungler, and now extremely squishy in teamfights.

Just what is Rengar's role? You nerfed him across the board and now he seems like a huge mess with no direction. Yes, he is playable; but being playable is not even close to being balanced. He is a fighter who lacks the ability to fight or off-tank, and a jungler who lacks the sustain and damage. His ultimate is completely LAUGHABLE.

I don't mean to be rude, but I just do not understand why you are nerfing him across the board. He doesn't deserve this.
You have no clue how badly Rengar even still needs nerfs.


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Morello

Lead Designer

12-17-2012
7 of 32 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralik098 View Post
This

There is nothing worse that nerfing a champion out of viability, never to be seen again. I wish you guys would really do a better job of focusing on this.
I think, though, we disagree on what viable is. Is Naut unviable? Really? Or is he just not as good as other OP picks? Are teams not utilizing tanks in the jungle now?

Maybe he is weak, sure - but I think there are sleeper hits (and we see this quite a bit) and a certain amount of parroting that makes people assume that a champion is weak without it being weak. A lot of what the team does is thinking about this stuff.


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SdotPaul

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Feels like they're trying to force Rengar out of lane. I hate jungle (Unless its Nautilus)


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zerodahero

Senior Member

12-17-2012

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Originally Posted by Minishmaster View Post
Animation delays tend to just cause anti-fun situations, ("I pressed the skill before I died, why didn't it go off!" or "I want to chase and kill the enemy, and this ranged skill may kill him, but if I use it I will be unable to chase him due to the cast time")

Really, I liked the diana nerf. I think we need more changes like that. I like having a dynamic game, where the 'best champions' are always shifting. This happened a lot during Season 1, and I think that the reason for that was because FoTM champs lasted for literally a month before seeing some change.
Also, mobility needs a nerf after flash changes left some champions with nothing more than a 400 range blink.
diana was only a gate keeper to keeping tf (which doesn't suffer from anything being picked against him), kat, karthus and other weaker stuff out of mid. Now shes gone you will continue to see anivias, karthus, tf and oriana still stick around. She was an aggressive mid like ahri which was a perfect fit to the aggressive play style.

This is the same as how olaf went from underplayed to OP when everyone in top lane got nerfed. I mean udyr used to rule top then he got both his legs broken and disappeared.


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MandyMemory

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Senior Member

12-17-2012

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
ASpd slows have one specific purpose - debuff ADC/some fighter damage. If you want a character to do that, then they should lower attack speed. If you don't, then it's superfluous.
Sejuani is a tank that isn't tanky through base stats or abilities. I think an AS slow might go quite a ways on her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Well, that seems like that's untrue, looking at the numbers, it was just so far before, and when we toned it to the particle range, it feels small.
Maybe her attack range is off. They don't explode unless you take a step in.


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Orconem

Senior Member

12-17-2012

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I think, though, we disagree on what viable is. Is Naut unviable? Really? Or is he just not as good as other OP picks? Are teams not utilizing tanks in the jungle now?

Maybe he is weak, sure - but I think there are sleeper hits (and we see this quite a bit) and a certain amount of parroting that makes people assume that a champion is weak without it being weak. A lot of what the team does is thinking about this stuff.
I think most people just get it in their heads that 'Not viable in competitive' is the same as 'Not viable at all'. Any champion is good in pubs, but people are hesitant to play with any champions that wasn't seen at the latest tournament, or have any of their teammates play one.


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Ralik098

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I think, though, we disagree on what viable is. Is Naut unviable? Really? Or is he just not as good as other OP picks? Are teams not utilizing tanks in the jungle now?

Maybe he is weak, sure - but I think there are sleeper hits (and we see this quite a bit) and a certain amount of parroting that makes people assume that a champion is weak without it being weak. A lot of what the team does is thinking about this stuff.
I'm not talking specifically about Nautilus, just that you tend to ignore champions far to long after they have been overnerfed. Nautilus is just one example, another would be someone like Urgot. He hasn't been seen at all since his nerfs, not that I even like him. However, I just wish you guys would keep a closer eye on champions after they receive a nerf, especially if they completely disappear from competitive play. OP champions can be dealt with through bans, but there is literally nothing worse than feeling like your favorite champion is in a bad state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Right - it's an expectation difference here that I think causes a lot of conflict. I think Kog'Maw is a good example - he's pretty OK (but not omg must pick) in quite a few teams, but if you create a babysit-the-carry comp, he has a unique place in that team and really performs.

I really like this overall as Kog'Maw players can use him effectively, he has weaknesses, but also has a situation he is king in. It lets us use incomparables to balance.

We tend to have an easier time with this on AP and carries, but fighters are tough as we have a lot of baggage on fighters - and a numbr include less gameplay/counter-play overall, making us have less levers to pull. Slowing Diana's Q speed, for example, would give us another gameplay lever, and would allow for bigger high moments and bigger windows of vulnerability.
Also, the other day I sent you a message on twitter about Irelia and you said that "She doesn't have any gameplay". I didn't understand what you meant by that and you make another mention of it here, talking about bruisers in general. Would you mind clarifying what you mean by that?


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dogbiter

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I think, though, we disagree on what viable is. Is Naut unviable? Really? Or is he just not as good as other OP picks? Are teams not utilizing tanks in the jungle now?

Maybe he is weak, sure - but I think there are sleeper hits (and we see this quite a bit) and a certain amount of parroting that makes people assume that a champion is weak without it being weak. A lot of what the team does is thinking about this stuff.
what about melee carries Morello? dont you think they have it too hard because the existance of Jax simply overshadows every fighter??? (or atleast the 3 melee carries?)


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zerodahero

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I think, though, we disagree on what viable is. Is Naut unviable? Really? Or is he just not as good as other OP picks? Are teams not utilizing tanks in the jungle now?

Maybe he is weak, sure - but I think there are sleeper hits (and we see this quite a bit) and a certain amount of parroting that makes people assume that a champion is weak without it being weak. A lot of what the team does is thinking about this stuff.
Naut is simply unviable, he was used a lot in ipl3 then disappeared forever after nerfs. I understand that some champions don't fit some teams play style like how Nocturne is heavily used by WE but Fnatic will never pick him, but atleast he sees play. Same as shyvana used by TSM, and how Diamondprox was the only one using lee for a long time and snoopeh with amumu, Nintendudex with olaf before he started seeing play by everyone. But Naut hasn't seen any play time since ipl3, while the other offenders mao and skarner continued to be used instead of him. There is really no reason to take a full tank outside of mundo/mao and amumu right now