@Morello, can you explain the design philosophy used for nerfing champions?

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Morello

Lead Designer

12-18-2012
25 of 32 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by canpan14 View Post
and..and..maybe a Heimerdinger remake also?
It'll come, but it's not next.


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l kyuubi l

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Senior Member

12-18-2012

Personally, what I think needs to happen with Riot's balance philosophy is to take some of the Blizzard approach. Blizzard, especially with StarCraft 2, often lets builds sink in and offers their players the unique opportunity to find ways to counter the builds. More often than not, Blizzard makes very small tweaks that are *extremely* effective instead of committing murder on a certain build and completely nerfing it into the ground. Why they do this is very simple: the game's balance shifts based upon new builds being discovered.

I can tell you right now, I have never seen a Diana beat a Rumble mid. How often do people actually play Rumble mid? Not very often, because they don't *think* to try it.

Diana was a pretty common pick before the tournaments, but exploded in popularity right afterward. She was still technically "new" to the game for most people, because she was picked infrequently prior to IPL5.

I want to use Orianna as an example here. According to all statistics for solo queue, she is not viable and her win rate is abysmal. However, she saw amazing success in the tournaments due to her exceptional utility and teamfight presence. Nobody at Riot jumped the gun and decided, "hey, lets nerf the **** out of her because she's used too much." This was a great idea, because it ended up that Orianna was NOT overpowered, as we have since discovered.

I understand the situation was different with Diana, but my point remains the same; why not let Diana sit in solo queue and stir for a bit, then try nerfing her mana costs. If that doesn't work, hit her utility a bit. Don't hit all four parts of her kit at once and not expect a hugenormous blowback from both the community and data.

Diana has one tool in her kit - a hammer. She is not as flexible as Orianna is, but she is exceptional at diving the carry. If you look at her statistics in solo queue, prior to the nerfs, she was hovering between 50-52%, with an average win rate of 52%. At IPL5, she had an *exactly even* winrate of 50%. I feel that is a very balanced champion, so I would like some light shed onto why exactly she was pretty much crushed with the nerf bat.

While I do agree that statistics don't tell the full details, I don't agree with deciding to nerf a champion because she is rewarding to use and a commonly picked champion due to her fitting the current "dive the AD carry" meta.

TL;DR: Please re-examine how harshly you nerf some characters. Diana was fun before the nerfs, and now she's sad and crawls around mid lane with broken legs.

Edit: Wanted to mention that I know you guys are pretty young as a company, especially when compared to a giant like Blizzard, but you guys have done really well so far. I want to see it continue to do well. League is currently my most played game, and I love it. I just hate when things like this happen.


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ScottyRawr

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It'll come, but it's not next.
Do you plan on changing all these labels the Champions have? Like the Support, Ranged, Jungler (etc.) labels on their Profiles?


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Krosan

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It'll come, but it's not next.
If we're taking questions like this, how about the much-rumored Karma rework?

I really need to give her a try right now, to see if the item changes helped her out, but the fact remains that she doesn't have any real "awesome" moments and she has extremely mediocre peeling capability...


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stu the hat u

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Morello, since you guys have a good idea of where you want Diana to be now, what's your opinion on Akali, who she's very similar to?.


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ZetaWolven

Junior Member

12-18-2012

@Morello

Dear Morello,
I am going to hope and assume you read this, and would like to ask you if there is anyway you would take a look at twisted fate. I would like to see if you have any plans to look at him. I know you guys have said you like champions having many options, and he is one of my favorites. He is the first character i have played of league, and i have played for 2 years. I am just now getting into the ranked scene, and i'm not very good, but i do know that all players agree that twisted fate AD is pretty bad these days. I was wondering if you are planning on ever looking at towards giving his AD side more viable? He just was such a fun champion to play back when his AD side was almost more viable than AP. Now it seems like his AD side has been forbidden. I am also wondering if you guys ever have any plans to tweak the champions who have abilities the have interesting feature of scaling by last hitting. (Nasus, Sion, and Veigar currently.) They all seem to need tweaks(veigar is decent, but still not up to par, the others aren't even by game standards viable really..), and i would like to say in the bottom line, i feel that you all balance well. I understand you have to tweak numbers and see how it rolls. I get it. I honestly the only time i have issues is when you straight up remove a character's key feature, (such as the eve stun.) I trust you guys but i just was hoping you would read this, as i would really like to see twisted fate's AD side come back to life, and the 3 ability scalers to be come more competitive. I also want to say TF's AD used to be building like an ADc, and now the only thing that works that you can call decent to go AD on twisted fate is to go basically hybrid, and i want to go back to when he could build like a real adc and work. I miss the TF ult backdoors, =/. Those are the things i enjoy, as they can be stopped but they add so much action to the game. I think twisted fate does that as a whole, but i hate that one side of him has died it feels like.


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XxEtherlordxX

Junior Member

12-18-2012

What about Zyra's plants bugged attacking mechanics? Any reasons why it's happening?


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Damie904

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It'll come, but it's not next.
Is there anyway you can get Xyph to talk about Heim's rework? I know there was a thread asking what people liked about Viktor and Sej, but nothing for Heim really.


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AboutTenPandas

Senior Member

12-18-2012

It was really educational to learn that Riot doesn't want all champions to be equally balanced. It actually makes a lot of sense now. Anyway, since so many people are asking about certain champions, I figured I'd ask too.

Trundle.

Not that he's underpowered, just that his q screws up his dps when his attack speed is anywhere above base because the animation of it takes soooo long, making it more beneficial to not even use it. (this includes any time he's inside his contaminate)

Literally every other champion with an attack resetter (Jax, Shyvana, Vi, Nautilus, and MANY others) can use theirs even with max attackspeed and it still help them. However if Trundle does so, he misses out on auto attacks and ends up doing so much less damage than he should.

I know this is a problem you can't not know about. The forum has been complaining about it for years. Is there any specific reason why this can't be changed? I don't really think it would put him in OP status or anything...


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tacobff

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Statikk might be posting more, but let me update on the details that are concerning in a TLDR sense;

Diana: We overnerfed here, agreed. Will fix next patch.

Rengar: We need to tear him down a bit to build him back up - someone earlier in this thread mentioned that he has too many things to be both balanced and fun, and that's the same problem we detect. There will be additional changes next patch.
Any word on irelia?