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@Morello, can you explain the design philosophy used for nerfing champions?

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bladeweed

Senior Member

12-18-2012

I am only a junior player (level 20). I was just getting good with Diana when she got nerfed. Obviously I was a bit upset (I paid for her after all), but I haven't tried her post-nerf so I don't know what she's like, and at my level of experience, I don't really have a good handle on who is "overpowered", so I'll reserve comment.

I do have one question for Morello - do you take into account the "Matthew Effect" when deciding whether to ban a champ?

You can google the "Matthew Effect" if you want to learn about it - basically, it is the sociological phenomenon where popular things get more popular, and unpopular things get less popular. So everyone plays Diana, and then because everyone plays her, she gets more popular, etc.

There is a lot of "groupthink" in League of Legends, where people say some champs are good, and others are bad. This effect can be self-reinforcing. If all the skilled players take Diana, or Ezreal, or Rengar, or whoever, then that champ win more.

It always seemed to me that there were lots of ways to counter Diana. Most specifically, just be really aggressive pre-six. Post six, be very careful. In team fights, Diana is squishy and has no natural escape but has to get up close to do her damage. Stay behind your tank, wait for her to attack, and then focus her when she pounces. I found it very difficult to play against AP mids like Lux. Nerfing all four abilities seems excessive.

Anyway, here I am complaining my favorite champion got nerfed. I'm just curious how much effort you put into your decisions to control for the "flavor of the month" or "Matthew Effect."


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RealTalkBroSki

Member

12-18-2012

but but what about trundle


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JuiceyJay

Member

12-18-2012

Hey morello, is anyone looking at reworking or taking care of Evelyn? She REALLY needs a new look/skins since you have been doing that to the older champs.


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IntangibleOne

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Please make tristana's abilities scale with AD. she needs a rework, too. (i want her old e passive back lololol. watch this on youtube).

watch?v=oQ_03wBhWt0


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RealTalkBroSki

Member

12-18-2012

but but....trundle shouldnt be ignored


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senatorwolf

Senior Member

12-18-2012

@Morello. Probably a little off topic, but I've been pretty satisfied with the last few patches.

Item re-works, and a lot of new and interesting ones added. It greatly broadens the horizon, when it comes to builds and countering. For instance a few games back I was put against Veigar in mid, and to counter, I built AD/MR blanc, and dominated him(game ended early with me at 12/1/X).

I am not completely sure why Madred's Bloodrazor was removed, and no 4% 'max' hp does not equal 4% 'current' hp for those who will say it was replaced with BotRK, the two items share little in common.

I know the diana players qq a lot, but I am glad to see some nerfs on her. I've played several games since the nerf's, and feel like diana players don't always dominate mid. Before her nerfs, I would usually think, "...this will be another one of those games where Diana goes mid, and then ends up with 2X/X/1X, and says in all chat that his/her team won because he/she(Diana) is such a good player. Bleh."

I'm not sure about the Rengar nerfs, other than initial release, I didn't think he was that strong, I don't personally have him, but I've had no trouble shutting him down.

It may have been mentioned in here, but sometimes I wish flash was reworked(or even removed). When I jungle, the first thing I look for is which enemy players don't have flash, as I know they will be less likely to escape a gank. From my experience it seems flash is usually taken over any other summoner skill.

I'll give some scenarios.

Defensive Escape Uses
-J4 Ult, target flashes out of it.
-Blanc/Shaco/Ahri/(other characters with built in flash/dashes) if played correctly become near impossible to kill without excessive CC.
-Player tower dives for a kill, and to avoid a fatal shot from the tower, flashes away.
-Player is about to die, but flashes over a wall, allowing for a narrow escape.

Offensive Uses

-Target is low on hp, but out of reach, so pursuer flashes the gap, to secure the final hit.
-Champions with powerful AoE ults flash for better positioning. For instance mumu misses bandage toss, so instead just flashes into the middle of the group and ults. Another instance, Fiddle gets noticed ulting, targeted team begins to step out of reach, fiddle just flashes the gap.

I feel like it poses a problem in champion balancing, I mean how are you supposed to balance champions who can use this to counter a weakness.


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ArmySquirrel

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Okay, one thing I have to ask is if this doesn't just get Diana and Rengar (and perhaps other champions who came before) out of the way and on the back burner. When a champion is OP and starts to dominate the game, obviously action must be taken for the sake of the game, but at the same time many champions on the other end of the scale go months or even years without much help. Karma for instance still has no remake in sight, and even new champions like Syndra don't see much use.

Is this a common take for how to deal with things? Is it that you don't have the time to work on them or do some champions simply get benched, so to speak, until a good idea for balancing them comes along and the time can be taken to make sure it's well thought out? Sort of like what happened to Evelynn.


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Sairentosutoka

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
shedim:
One of your 25 FOTM picks is Ezreal. 1st choice AD carry in every major tournament eversince you released pulsefire. The only AD carry that competed with him was Corki, but since you nerfed him more than Ezreal, he basically vanished from the screen. Only Ezreal is left and usually picked as soon as possible. Does that look like variety to you?

You even managed to murder an unpopular, niche champion such as Urgot with your overzealous nerfs. Glad you're constantly using ~60 champions in tournaments, but it could easily be 80, if it wasn't for your occasional nerfbat rampages. You said you like champions to shine in certain situations. Where exactly does Urgot shine, now? What's his niche?

You're usually doing fine with balancing hence why people are shocked when you overnerf something every couple of months, or so.

Nerfbat killcount so far:
-Rammus
-Gangplank
-Heimerdinger
-Urgot
-Nautilus
-Tryndamere
-Rengar

Doesn't that make you a little bit sad, at least?


i dont get this ezreal is easily killed by many i destroy ezreal as vayne i also destroy vayne as ezreal completley on your ability to play the champ.

i dont know how rammus is destroyed i dominate with him every time i play him.

gangplank is fine hes ****ing amazing imo i destroy when i play him.

heimer is pretty good could use a bit of buffs.

urgnot just isnt my style so i cant say much.

nautilus is fine hes an amazing jungler and his ganks are painful as ****.

tryndamere is ****ing op imo but cant be kited easy but has a slow and a dash a heal dmg when lower health and more crit more rage and undying rage if anything fiora should be put in place of trynd shes got nothing compared to adc melee champs.

rengar was perfectly fine when he came out but since from what i saw i was the only one who knew how to ****ing play him i was always dominating top and everyone was QQ'ing about how underpowered he was so he was buffed and became op so that literaly anyone could play and win with him then hes nerfed again and everyones all *oh his double q cant 2 hit someone hes underpowered*


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Thunderfrog

Senior Member

12-18-2012

@ Morello..


What do you think of Morellohawk? He's a secret leagueomon with only one move, Hawkwatch. He watches S3 balance changes like a hawk.

This is a Morellohawk, taking Black Cleaver away from the abusers. (GJ btw) I need to make a new Morellohawk, taking the range away from Diana's shield so she has to face hump jungle monsters. (Bad job, btw)


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Apox

Senior Member

12-18-2012

i love league, been playing for almost 3 years, but my ABSOLUTE....LEAST favorite thing about this game is the balance philosophy. we are not, ever, moving closer to some theoretical state of balance, as if things are broken but get we're getting closer with each patch.

balance has always, and seemingly will always, be about rotation. change to keep it fresh. realistically Riot can't make every champ, or even close to all champs, viable. Morello has said this. if it was the goal, then karma, heimer, etc. all the "reportable" tear champs would have hot-fix buffs regularly, but instead they stay that way for months while focusing on nerfing tournament champions. the only alternative then is that the goal of balancing in LoL is to rotate who is OP and who we need to play in order to be competitive. and mostly so that the pros don't play the same set of champions every competition. that's why OP champs get nerfed into oblivion, not into making them just as good as their counterparts, more realistic and fair, but rather to have them removed from play so that other champs will take their spot in the limelight for a while, before nerfs come and force everyone to play someone else. Riot is telling everyone to stop playing Diana, stop playing Rengar, just like they have with other champions in the past. find something new to play with for a while and THE CYCLE OF LIFE CONTINUES.