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@Morello, can you explain the design philosophy used for nerfing champions?

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Lukiner

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Morello:

Additionally, some of the Diana stuff might have been to fill in for the nerf we'd really like to do but is much tougher; slowing Q's missile speed. I think that would exemplify good Diana gameplay and create more counterplay.


what the?! you want to molest/nerf her again instead of fixing/buffing the things that latests nerfs destroyed in her?

you already disabled one of Diana skills (Pale Cascade) by reducing the range and hitbox to void/null so Diana need to jump and sit on enemy champion shoulders (http://www.profimedia.si/photo/girl-sitting-on-boyfriend-s-shoulder-for-better/profimedia-0050668757.jpg) if she want to hit it with all 3 orbs and get second shield (HAHAHA try to do this vs ap carries and adc without long HAD CC = impossible) and made her Q+R synchro/combo clunky (instead of making R range the same as Q you just brutally cut off 250 range from this skill). Her jungle is crappy (cause of broken W and weak ganks E + R) and her mid-lane is dead...


maybe instead of making her useless and not viable pick (even Syndra is more popular now compared to Diana) just delete this champ and return RP and IP for everyone who bought her?


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Whyumai

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Lukiner:
what the?! you want to molest/nerf her again instead of fixing/buffing the things that latests nerfs destroyed in her?

you already disabled one of Diana skills (Pale Cascade) by reducing the range and hitbox to void/null so Diana need to jump and sit on enemy champion shoulders (http://www.profimedia.si/photo/girl-sitting-on-boyfriend-s-shoulder-for-better/profimedia-0050668757.jpg) if she want to hit it with all 3 orbs and get second shield (HAHAHA try to do this vs ap carries and adc without long HAD CC = impossible) and made her Q+R synchro/combo clunky (instead of making R range the same as Q you just brutally cut off 250 range from this skill). Her jungle is crappy (cause of broken W and weak ganks E + R) and her mid-lane is dead...


maybe instead of making her useless and not viable pick (even Syndra is more popular now compared to Diana) just delete this champ and return RP and IP for everyone who bought her?


How quickly people forget that period of time that Eve was nerfed into uselessness and the extremely long period of time she was left there without any buffs at all.

Comparatively, Diana isn't too bad at the moment.


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22Knights

Junior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Lukiner:
what the?! you want to molest/nerf her again instead of fixing/buffing the things that latests nerfs destroyed in her?

you already disabled one of Diana skills (Pale Cascade) by reducing the range and hitbox to void/null so Diana need to jump and sit on enemy champion shoulders (http://www.profimedia.si/photo/girl-sitting-on-boyfriend-s-shoulder-for-better/profimedia-0050668757.jpg) if she want to hit it with all 3 orbs and get second shield (HAHAHA try to do this vs ap carries and adc without long HAD CC = impossible) and made her Q+R synchro/combo clunky (instead of making R range the same as Q you just brutally cut off 250 range from this skill). Her jungle is crappy (cause of broken W and weak ganks E + R) and her mid-lane is dead...


maybe instead of making her useless and not viable pick (even Syndra is more popular now compared to Diana) just delete this champ and return RP and IP for everyone who bought her?


And I just got her skin when it's on sale a few weeks back. Hell I am Falling into this trap.
That's so true due to reduce radius on e and r, it's also harder to proc the orbs.
I find it ok to nerf everything except her w and r.
It's just so pointless with her now, she can literally do nothing except poking with her q. She cannot tank, she cannot cc properly to help her chase, the r range is low and can't catch up with other champs with her move speed. With the q nerf, she literally deals not enuf damage now and has no finish moves.


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Jester of Sirius

Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Morello:
It's also important to realize that it's not our goal (nor statistically possible!) to have every champion in the top tier picks list. We just want options to be viable, and especially have them be situational or strategy-based.


I see many people complaining one way or another about how a champ needs to be nerfed or buffed to "balance the game".

@RIOT: I wish you guys would just do some analysis before you release champs and stop messing with our favorite champs.

@The Complainers who want a "balanced game": Like he said, it's not statistically possible. If you want a "balanced game" then go play checkers, but I think you'll manage to complain that black pieces offer a visual advantage or something like that...


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Mysterage

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Morello, I do rage at you, and the champ team...a LOT, over nerfs & whatnot. Though I have seen a much more sensible approach to nerfs in the past year or so, than previously, so for that, thank you.


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Lukiner

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
22Knights:
And I just got her skin when it's on sale a few weeks back. Hell I am Falling into this trap.
That's so true due to reduce radius on e and r, it's also harder to proc the orbs.
I find it ok to nerf everything except her w and r.
It's just so pointless with her now, she can literally do nothing except poking with her q. She cannot tank, she cannot cc properly to help her chase, the r range is low and can't catch up with other champs with her move speed. With the q nerf, she literally deals not enuf damage now and has no finish moves.


same... RIOT and their damn greedy cheating policy

Quote:
22Knights:
And I just got her skin when it's on sale a few weeks back. Hell I am Falling into this trap.
That's so true due to reduce radius on e and r, it's also harder to proc the orbs.
I find it ok to nerf everything except her w and r.
It's just so pointless with her now, she can literally do nothing except poking with her q. She cannot tank, she cannot cc properly to help her chase, the r range is low and can't catch up with other champs with her move speed. With the q nerf, she literally deals not enuf damage now and has no finish moves.


and that's the problem... she is literally NOTHING now... weak jungler, weak ap mid, weak ap assassin, weak initiator, weak tank >.>
  • Elise, Fiddle (maybe even Eve) are better ap junglers,
  • <insert random ap carry name> is better ap mid,
  • KATARINA, LeBlanc, Akali, Fizz, Kass etc.. are better ap assassins,
  • <insert random tanky (ad/ap) jungler or bruiser name like Maokai, Amm or Naut> is better initiator/tank

instead of ruining her mechanic and skills synchro they just should increase CD (or mana cost) on W and E, lower the base value of shield (W) and make R range the same as Q not ridiculously smaller ....
nerfing/changing champ stats or skill rations/values >>>> nerfing/changing mechanics and range of skills

Diana is new Irelia.... but compared to Irelia, Diana won't be able to get up and be still viable after nerf machine gun. We won't see Diana in tournaments or high elo games anymore (I wonder if even Stonewall will jungle as her = he enjoyed playing her as jungler before and after pre-season changes) and in elo hell, low&medium elo she will be countered by better stable picks


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ll Nate Dogg ll

Junior Member

12-18-2012

I don't know why Diana has been left out of Morello's comments. This recent patch hit her hard and I agree that she was very strong and even OP but making her ult lower range than her q? WHY? That nerf totally screws her whole kit. I rarely question the nerfs Riot makes even when they are on champs I play but this was stupid. I am a big Diana player and this ruined her now. Please add some range back even if its just making it the same range as her q.


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Lukiner

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
ll Nate Dogg ll:
I don't know why Diana has been left out of Morello's comments. This recent patch hit her hard and I agree that she was very strong and even OP but making her ult lower range than her q? WHY? That nerf totally screws her whole kit. I rarely question the nerfs Riot makes even when they are on champs I play but this was stupid. I am a big Diana player and this ruined her now. Please add some range back even if its just making it the same range as her q.


also fix her derped shield so it at least have the same range as her auto attack ...


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Devastator Jones

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Diana's Win Rate pre-nerf: 52%
Diana's Win Rate post-nerf: 40%

Rengar's Win Rate pre-nerf: 49%
Rengar's Win Rate post-nerf: 40%

Is a 40% win rate balanced? I mean, Ahri's win rate post Diana nerfs is about 52% now... So Ahri is just as strong as Diana was pre-nerf in terms of actual bottom-line results - aka winning games.

Quote:
ll Nate Dogg ll:
I don't know why Diana has been left out of Morello's comments. This recent patch hit her hard and I agree that she was very strong and even OP but making her ult lower range than her q? WHY? That nerf totally screws her whole kit. I rarely question the nerfs Riot makes even when they are on champs I play but this was stupid. I am a big Diana player and this ruined her now. Please add some range back even if its just making it the same range as her q.


The days of Diana are over. I mean over. Even Rammus has a win rate above 50% now... Diana dropped into Karma territory with these nerfs. It's one thing when you nerf a champion to be balanced, it's another thing entirely to nerf a champion to the point where people would never consider playing that champion ever again. When I saw the initial nerf posts on her Q's damage, before the other three skills being nerfed, I thought that was a fair nerf. But then when they decided to nerf her entire kit to the ground to make the champion useless. When I see a champion with a win rate of 40%, I think troll pick champion - not perfectly balanced champion.


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Eloquid

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Morello:
It's also important to realize that it's not our goal (nor statistically possible!) to have every champion in the top tier picks list. We just want options to be viable, and especially have them be situational or strategy-based.


So as much as I understand, your goal seems to be keeping only Darius and Katarina in so called top tier list. All the rest of the champs (except Teemo, I don't think there's something you could nerf there, his kit is just stupid) are pretty normal now, which is good news. Now, please, do the same nerfing for holly cows Darius and Katarina and all of the sudden we'll have balanced game on all levels and maps so we can all start to enjoy this game. Or would you go bankrupt Riot if Darius became normal champ? Anyway, Rengar nerf was healing this game needed for so long, he was one-click kill them all plague for this game. As for Diana, I played against her after the nerf and she still seems strong as hell. All the complaints are comming from ppl that enjoy dominating with op champs imo. Lots of those write gg easy in a chat too.