@Morello, can you explain the design philosophy used for nerfing champions?

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Galgus

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Senior Member

12-17-2012

@ Morello- I have a concern about Riot's design philosophy:

Riot seems to consider a champion well balanced when only one build/ role works when a sub-build exists that could be made viable with buffs not affecting the main build.

For example, for a very long time I played almost nothing but AP Alistar, but after his rework his AP ratios were hammered down for the stated purpose of not wanting to nerf his ultimate, but then the ultimate was nerfed.

I used to love Alistar and that build, but I've abandoned them both, as AP Alistar just doesn't feel viable anymore when I've tried it.

I fear that there is no hope for builds such as AP Alistar to recieve attention while anther build for the same champion is at a balanced state.


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BelligerentGnu

Senior Member

12-17-2012

I just have one question I really want answered, Morello.

Why did Live nerf Diana's ult range to be shorter than her Q? It makes absolutely no sense to me - the Q-R synergy is what Diana *is*, why break that?


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WILL SMlTH

Senior Member

12-17-2012

please nerf kat. she is OP!


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Drinniol

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Another question about balance philosophy with regard to "support" champions playing in nonsupport roles.

Why is it that when a support starts to do well at all at mid or top or what have you, they get instantly nerfed and nerfed hard. Zyra is a great mid and also an incredibly good support. Clearly, it's fine to have a champion that is a good mid and a good support... I'm really thinking more about Lulu here. Soraka I understand - the essence of her kit makes her intensely unfun to lane against in mid if she is at all viable. But Lulu, I don't really understand at all. Her kit certainly doesn't have more CC than zyra or other mids. It doesn't lack weaknesses or counterplay options. If Zyra can be a mid and a support, why can't Lulu be a mid and a support?


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Telitha

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Well, that seems like that's untrue, looking at the numbers, it was just so far before, and when we toned it to the particle range, it feels small.

I wonder what the reaction would have been had it started at the "proper" range to begin with. It's tough because once players get used to something that's not right, it's hard to change without causing quite a bit of disruption.

I will have Statikk (who is doing our balance patch stuff these days) take a look at the numbers just to be sure, though.
If you think this is true you really need to see this, because the way I recorded it makes the issue extremely glaring. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lY3yko_dbE I used a single creep for it because it prevents the orbs from being detonated by other things moving around which are not necessarily Diana's target.

Quite simply put it shows Diana already in melee with a target activating pale cascade and not a single orb lands with no additional movement whatsoever. It is particularly problematic against larger monsters and large champions (Cho'gath for example), additionally the fact that you posted this leads me to believe that the inability to trigger the spell on units in melee range is not the intended result of this change in which case you need to address it as a problem. The rest of the nerfs I understand and even support but I personally have to bench Diana for as long as Pale Cascade is unreliable and can (and often does) end up dealing no damage at all to a target in a straight up hockey fight style punch out. Please watch the video it is there only for demonstrating the problem and is only 8 seconds.

As I said I'm not even worried about the nerfs per se, I am however very worried that Pale Cascade no longer works as intended.


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AButtFlap

Member

12-17-2012

Wait, going back to one of your earlier responses...you want to nerf diana's q speed on top of the nerfs you just did??


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wcrkless

Junior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It depends on the situation and certainty - gradual changes are good for easing a character towards a more nerfed state, while drastic or faster nerfs are needed to solve more severe problems that are having a big impact. This is important because if a few champions are really out of line, they disallow use of any champions who compete with them for a slot on a team.

For Diana and Rengar, I'll be honest - I can't really comment in an informed manner here. The "appropriate force" approach is the overarching balance philosophy. A philosophy won't speak to accuracy (as that lies in execution details), but that's what we're trying to do at least.

Additionally, some of the Diana stuff might have been to fill in for the nerf we'd really like to do but is much tougher; slowing Q's missile speed. I think that would exemplify good Diana gameplay and create more counterplay.
hey as for the nurf on diana me and a lot of my friends that play diana have noticed that the ult range doesnt compensate with ther Qs range there for making her burst dmg alot harder to start and isnt diana about burst dmg? thats the only issue with this most recent nurf on diana that we have. a few of our personal thoughts.


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22Knights

Junior Member

12-17-2012

I think increasing Diana's move speed can compensate the loss of range in w e and r.
That way will make it more skill dependent on player if riot do not want to revert the nerf but make a small buff to Diana.

Currently, diana is just no no. Don't pick her unless u want to lose a game or carry by others.


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22Knights

Junior Member

12-17-2012

Oh and one more thing to note.
If hit box is such an great issue that must have it nerf to match the animation, then please explain whats with Lux laser. The hitbox on Lux ult is extremely huge compares to the animation. You get hit even u are not standing on the ult animation.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?feature...ure%3Dyoutu.be


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Whyumai

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Some quick balance questions:

1. Is Annie considered to be the baseline for all AP mages (balance wise)?

2. Is Annie being buffed (therefore) an example of power creep occurring in League of Legends?

If 1 is true, then which characters would be the baselines for AD/AP bruisers, AD Carries, and Supports (balance wise)?

Lastly, how are the values for Runes determined? Not just the value(s) (Armor, Magic Resist, Mana Regen, AD, AP, Gold Per Second, Etc) that they give, but also the cost (in IP) particularly in relation to other runes of similar types? While not seem to connect to character design, the value you can get from runes can be extremely important in how effective characters are in game. It really does feel like only a handful of runes types are really useful