@Morello, can you explain the design philosophy used for nerfing champions?

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Ding an Sich

Senior Member

12-17-2012

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Originally Posted by morello View Post
i like nachos. A lot.
i like nachos!


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Darklarik

Senior Member

12-17-2012

morello, for the sake of conversation, ima post my ideas here:

Savagery.... His Q could have been given a scaling, so that it isnt OP like in the early levels but dosent scale of horribly late game a problem Rengar had upon release, which is why his Q was buffed to begin with.
I think a EmpQ bonus 80% at lv 1---> 120% at lv5 Would have been nice. But allas, his only damage output now deals no damage. Not to 1shot at lv 1, but scales nicely into the late game

His Regen wasent the problem, it was that % heal, which could also have been given a scaling. like 10% at lv 1 ---> 15% at lv 5. It wouldent have hurt to give it an AD scale as well, to compensate for the Q nerfs, and make his jungle easier to clear. say like (1.0 per bonus AD?) while nerfing his AP ratio to (.7 ap) so to balance a possible Hybrid build. They could then add a (.3 Ap )scale to his E and lower its Ad scale to (.6 per bonus Ad) to accomodate for a hybrid build, which woulda have added more item versatility... but oh well, lost potential. I think a scaling % heal would be nice, so that late game he has some sustain in fights.

If you nerf his early scaling and damages, but buff them up substancioly as he progresses, players will choose in lane between having high defense or high damage, or a decent mix of both, but in a controlled way. This would make him omre of a snowbally champion.

and then of course, the ultimate....

Originally, his ult was buffed because he couldent catch anything. Hows he suppose to do that now? You bring back the old problems like they never happened... His ult deals no damage. 5 seconds of crappy stealth on nearly a 3 minute cd is ludicrous. His reveal isnt even that long at early levels, its 2000, just 400 more range than Nid's Spear. and even at 4000 range i dont know how this reveal can be considered op since unlike TF its gone as soon as he does anything.

Then of course that beautiful item of yours in now cost inefficiency. at lv 6 a pickax is so much more favorable. 25 ad or 12 ad? hmmm, hard choice.... am i getting a lot of kills? Instead of 2 ad per level, a small buff that could be added could simply be 2.5 - 3 ad per level. Or, at a certain number of trophies, it gains another 10 extra attack damage.


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ninjarock

Member

12-17-2012

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is true - though Sejuani needs more than just jungle speed. She's less weak than she is unsatisfying and failing to deliver on being a good tank. If you take a look, Meddler is looking at broader changes for this.

Nautilus is a better example of an easy fix, though; "is it that hard to increase Naut's Rank 1 W values?" Probably not

I've found naut's jungle fairly safe and reliable even at level 1. I can solo blue and only take about half health in damage, then the shield sustains me through the rest of the camps with pots running. I couldn't do a full clear because I ran out of pots before red, but it was good enough. I got a gank top in too. I play with smite, attack speed marks and armor seals. believe I started machete and pots. I havent done much jungling with him season 3, though his season two jungling seemed stronger.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

12-17-2012

The only ways in which I disagree with Rengar's nerfs, is that you tackled base damage and scaling instead of the duration of his respective buffs. If you wanted him to not do assassin-level burst damage while having access to bruiser-level sustained damage and survivability as well, you could've nerfed him in a way that further defined his playstyle, not make him a worse champion all-around--he would be more reliant on the first moment of engagement (the "pounce," much like a lion or other hunter would), and that would make him less overwhelming overall.

I'm not going to speak at great lengths on the matter until I work for Riot, though. There's only so much I can perceive as an outsider, after all, and I prefer to have a full understanding of things before I try to criticize the judgment of others.


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Dues Pater

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Senior Member

12-17-2012

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Originally Posted by ninjarock View Post
I've found naut's jungle fairly safe and reliable even at level 1. I can solo blue and only take about half health in damage, then the shield sustains me through the rest of the camps with pots running. I couldn't do a full clear because I ran out of pots before red, but it was good enough. I got a gank top in too. I play with smite, attack speed marks and armor seals. believe I started machete and pots. I havent done much jungling with him season 3, though his season two jungling seemed stronger.
just pray your not counter jungled or even killed by the opposing jungler after u finish your red.

Shyvana is your worst enemy remember that


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Iklo

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Just wanted to say thank you Morello for posting even a sentence about Volibear on the forums. I know many Volibear players have been waiting a long time to hear some news about our bear. It really means a lot. Happy holidays, keep up the good work.


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BlackMystic

Member

12-17-2012

I feel like you guys do a good job with the balances usually. Like Syndra, she seems really OP to me but no one has taken the time to really perfect her


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ninjarock

Member

12-17-2012

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Originally Posted by Dues Pater View Post
just pray your not counter jungled or even killed by the opposing jungler after u finish your red.

Shyvana is your worst enemy remember that

I rarely have problems with counter junglers. Pulling red into the bush means you see them coming. Plus they usually expect the first one to be gone unless they invade at level 1 (in which case I get blue and gank top, then possibly steal their red). And by the time I do red buff I have full health, so I only lose about 1/4

In season two I was actually counter jungling with naut a lot. I'd steal big wraith, check red, and take the big golem in the double golem camp.

There was one time where I lived in the enemy jungle because they had an amumu that kept trying to attack me with low health. The kat mid was slow to respond, so I could always run out, but I killed the amumu a couple times because he just kept trying to take wraiths after I damaged him (must have thought I left). I kinda felt bad for him, cuz he was level 4 while everyone else on the map was 7-10, but I wouldn't leave his jungle alone =P


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Aerophobia

Senior Member

12-17-2012

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Not really - I mean it's not optimal to have any, but if that's it...wow! That's better than I thought.

Also, I just looked into Nautilus. I think he's actually good - we did let him jungle with a level 1 W - try it!

Some of those are endemic of other problems, and should not be strong for the right reasons - Heimer being one of them. Anything that requires a rework is a victim of their gameplay being fundamentally flawed. This is less balance and more core design.
Asking for heimer turrets to work how they are supposed to work is fundamentally game breaking apparently.


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Blaine Tog

Senior Member

12-17-2012

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Additionally, some of the Diana stuff might have been to fill in for the nerf we'd really like to do but is much tougher; slowing Q's missile speed.
Please don't! Missile speeds on skillshots, especially weird skillshots, drastically effect a champion's feel. Diana's Q is already really low, it seems like she'd feel like **** if it were lower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Well, that seems like that's untrue, looking at the numbers, it was just so far before, and when we toned it to the particle range, it feels small.
It feels small because it's lower than her autoattack range. You have to be literally on top of someone before they'll pop.