@Morello, can you explain the design philosophy used for nerfing champions?

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Willow777

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by shedim View Post
One of your 25 FOTM picks is Ezreal. 1st choice AD carry in every major tournament eversince you released pulsefire. The only AD carry that competed with him was Corki, but since you nerfed him more than Ezreal, he basically vanished from the screen. Only Ezreal is left and usually picked as soon as possible. Does that look like variety to you?

You even managed to murder an unpopular, niche champion such as Urgot with your overzealous nerfs. Glad you're constantly using ~60 champions in tournaments, but it could easily be 80, if it wasn't for your occasional nerfbat rampages. You said you like champions to shine in certain situations. Where exactly does Urgot shine, now? What's his niche?

You're usually doing fine with balancing hence why people are shocked when you overnerf something every couple of months, or so.

Nerfbat killcount so far:
-Rammus
-Gangplank
-Heimerdinger
-Urgot
-Nautilus
-Tryndamere
-Rengar

Doesn't that make you a little bit sad, at least?
Urgot was picked a few times in the solomid series as a mid.


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Floran

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Morello, i haven't seen anyone reds talk about zyra and why her passive was nerfed and her grasping roots speed was reduced. Since i play ap zyra mid alot i am kinda curious why you nerfed them both after not seeing zyra nerfs for awhile?And i heard it was something about support zyras, but why nerf a champion who was ment to be played as ap mid, and got nerfed because she was played as a support. shed some light please?


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Raedien

Senior Member

12-17-2012

@Morello

Aside from testing her post nerf, I've been extremely disheartened and unmotivated to play League. I still enjoy playing other wonderful champions and my friends have dragged me into a few games and I still have fun.

However, when I look at Diana I get upset all over again.

I'll be there when you take a "real" look at "fixing" her.

I'll gladly take a slower Q (I play a LOT of Anivia after all...) in exchange for a kit that isn't rage-inducing.

I know you're read it on the vast majority of posts here, but Diana's kit flows well, I don't want it to change, I want it to work.

W : Range is entirely too short and, in my opinion, does NOT match the animation. That I can attack something and have my Orbs NOT pop is incredibly frustrating.

E : Was hard enough to land/rather predictable in the first place with a large wind up time but very satisfying results when executed well. It now feels like a waste of a skill point. If you really have to give/take, ditch/reduce the slow, the pull range was dead on IMO.

R : That you are NOT rewarded for a max range Q is an insult. Hopefully a slower Q can result in a same-range R.

Thanks,
~Rae~


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HayabusaZero

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Morello, i think some of the nerf to Diana don't make sense: Why nerfing her ultimate range lower than her Q max range? Does Riot don't want her Q->R burst combo at full potential in the game? It is strange considering that it is part of her mechanics from the beginning and one of the most satisfying things about her kit.

The shield should be adjusted to something between her previous one and the nerfed one. Like other fellow summoners pointed out, now you need to be really close to anything to get the effect.

Sorry if my post comes out as raging. I'll really like some light on the thinking behind this changes.


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Malloreon

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Additionally, some of the Diana stuff might have been to fill in for the nerf we'd really like to do but is much tougher; slowing Q's missile speed. I think that would exemplify good Diana gameplay and create more counterplay.
This probably won't be seen but I have to ask.

When this nerf goes live, will you be reverting the other nerfs? Or at least the W and R nerfs?


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Slowing Diana's Q speed, for example, would give us another gameplay lever
There's actually a particular issue with buffing or nerfing Diana specifically--

She's very binary.

Some people may consider this trait good for balance, but it's actually quite troublesome:

If she only does one thing, with one particular optimal sequencing, she'll be sensitive to wild swings in power by modifying elements of that sequence.

So, if you make it easier to dodge her Q, there's a very real possibility she will feel useless.
She needs to land that Q first to move into her optimal combo.

A better nerf or readjustment would potentially be reducing the annoyance factor from her poke, and localize her power more to melee range perhaps with this set:

1. Lower Q damage, perhaps lots.
2. R now only consumes the Moonlight stack on the target she jumps to-- this allows her to jump around more based upon skillful Q placement.
3. Increase shield strength.
(As the core framework, many other things could augment it.)

The goal being to diversify her potential combat tactics, and thus allow higher resolution balancing. (While perhaps being more fun.)


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Pizza on a Bun

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Wow, I see that this post got really good!

I wish I had posted in it when it had 5 comments :[


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Floran

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MilkJugg24 View Post
Wow, I see that this post got really good!

I wish I had posted in it when it had 5 comments :[
I know right, i am pretty sure my question about zyra won't be answer by morello, but there is always hope. *"looks to the sky for a ray of light"*


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ninjarock

Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I think, though, we disagree on what viable is. Is Naut unviable? Really? Or is he just not as good as other OP picks? Are teams not utilizing tanks in the jungle now?

Maybe he is weak, sure - but I think there are sleeper hits (and we see this quite a bit) and a certain amount of parroting that makes people assume that a champion is weak without it being weak. A lot of what the team does is thinking about this stuff.

Plus popular picks made by the pro's are considered the best picks, but they just pick those champions because they are comfortable playing it, and can play it well. Most champions are viable, just not something the pro players (some who've only been playing half a year) may know how to play.

Nautilus is an example of this. He has a ton of crowd control, but you have to know when and how to use him. I've tower dived tons of times, then got counter ganked with no health behind enemy turrets, and gotten away by throwing a q to the edge of the wall and rushing past the turret. One shield is enough to keep me alive through the one or two turret shots. Most tower divers don't have this mobility. He's similar to a stacked cho'gath as a frontliner, and larger if lulu uses her ult on you. He's a great peeler and disruption for the enemy team as well. Problem is the pro's don't know he exists, or don't know how to play him comfortably.

Ahri is another example, you see her very rarely in tournaments, because she's hard to play, but the one or two times you see her, the person really knows how she works, and they dominate (Possibly because the other team isn't used to playing against her).

Of course there are some champions that have been nerfed to the point of being a bad pick, but you can't assume just because its not seen in tournaments, it must be unviable


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Fenix9000

Senior Member

12-17-2012

It sucks that someone like Tryndamere, one of the league's most iconic heroes, is in the state he is right now.
He was one of the first champions I heard of when i first started playing League.
Just a shame that someone who was once so high up in strength (people used to FEAR the barbarian king when he came on the fields of justice)
Now he is just one of the forgotten ;l(