@Morello, can you explain the design philosophy used for nerfing champions?

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Viktorious Alekt

Senior Member

12-17-2012

What happened with Rammus anyway? I always encourage my friends to learn Rammus jungle... His ganks are amazing at mid lane combined with Syndra's stun.


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Duke Br0heimer

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Not really - I mean it's not optimal to have any, but if that's it...wow! That's better than I thought.

Also, I just looked into Nautilus. I think he's actually good - we did let him jungle with a level 1 W - try it!

Some of those are endemic of other problems, and should not be strong for the right reasons - Heimer being one of them. Anything that requires a rework is a victim of their gameplay being fundamentally flawed. This is less balance and more core design.
Where do you feel Nasus is currently at, balance-wise? Do you think the new items/masteries did him a lot of good? Would you still consider giving him a rework?


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ALLIIAN

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Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Not really - I mean it's not optimal to have any, but if that's it...wow! That's better than I thought.

Also, I just looked into Nautilus. I think he's actually good - we did let him jungle with a level 1 W - try it!

Some of those are endemic of other problems, and should not be strong for the right reasons - Heimer being one of them. Anything that requires a rework is a victim of their gameplay being fundamentally flawed. This is less balance and more core design.
Morello, you didn't talk about Urgot..........
please. You broke him. You broke him and left Urgot players to rot.


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CakeandBacon

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Since we've got you here, Morello...

What's your stance on Katarina? She's been first pick/ban material for a while now, and is all over the tournament scene. I love the champ, but I feel that a bit too much of her counterplay got removed with her rework.

That said, I think nerfing her damage will make her outright unviable, since a single spell rotation from her isn't actually that powerful and she brings nothing else to the team (well, heal reduction, but no CC or anything). How would an issue like this be handled by the nerfbat?


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DONGLORD420

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Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Not really - I mean it's not optimal to have any, but if that's it...wow! That's better than I thought.

Also, I just looked into Nautilus. I think he's actually good - we did let him jungle with a level 1 W - try it!

Some of those are endemic of other problems, and should not be strong for the right reasons - Heimer being one of them. Anything that requires a rework is a victim of their gameplay being fundamentally flawed. This is less balance and more core design.
since you're still here, care to comment on tryndamere? you guys kinda nerfed him and left him to die for pretty much no reason awhile ago.


also, why did you decide to annihilate rengar/diana and leave lee sin alone when all 3 have about 90% pick/ban rate in tournaments?


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Morphine

Senior Member

12-17-2012

@Morello, if you slow Diana's Q missile speed (which I think is actually a pretty cool nerf - it allows for counterplay in smart opponents, but also rewards prediction for smart Diana players), can we expect some of her other nerfs to be dialed back (assuming the test of time shows them to be heavy-handed, rather than nerfs that people will adjust to over time)?

I don't think anyone questions that she needed nerfing, but the way she was nerfed feels kind of ugly. I don't think she's "weak" in the strictest numbers-game sense of the term, but stuff like her Q and R having different ranges, her W not popping when autoing jungle creeps/enemy champions - sometimes I feel like I'm fighting the clunkiness of Diana rather than the opponent. It's a frustrating play experience and I'd be happy to take nerfs elsewhere (to Q missile speed / cooldown / damage / mana cost / really anything) to get back the feeling of a smooth, cohesive kit on her.


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ArmySquirrel

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Hey Morello, on the subject of Diana, since you mentioned the potential Q speed reduction, I wanted to ask, what are your ideas for how you want Diana's gameplay to go like? Was there anything else you would have preferred to do but couldn't? Or anything you would like to look at in the future? Could we still see a Q missile speed drop?


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Cronovey

Senior Member

12-17-2012

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Originally Posted by Alekt View Post
Well it always leaves me cynic when I end up getting 100 gold for a kill, I was already whining in S2 about that change back from S1 that now it's nerfed again. =(
Yes, but if that player is only giving you 100g, you've been beating that same player into the ground all game. Maybe you should lighten up on the guy and just farm your lane for the increased gold gain? Otherwise, you'll end up actually falling behind on gold while they slowly farm back to your level.

Either way you look at it, this helps the player that is behind still have a chance instead of just watching a game snowball completely out of control, which is an excellent system. It makes the playing field more level for all players no matter what champion they play or their personal skill level.

[Edit] Also, any chance that you'll look into Diana's mana costs? It really is just silly how low the cost of her Q is for the damage it does (did).


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Viktorious Alekt

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CakeandBacon View Post
Since we've got you here, Morello...

What's your stance on Katarina? She's been first pick/ban material for a while now, and is all over the tournament scene. I love the champ, but I feel that a bit too much of her counterplay got removed with her rework.

That said, I think nerfing her damage will make her outright unviable, since a single spell rotation from her isn't actually that powerful and she brings nothing else to the team (well, heal reduction, but no CC or anything). How would an issue like this be handled by the nerfbat?
Yeah Katarina feels overwhelming, 1 kill and she's already unstoppable. Even though you had killed her 4 times already.


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Viktorious Alekt

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cronovey View Post
Yes, but if that player is only giving you 100g, you've been beating that same player into the ground all game. Maybe you should lighten up on the guy and just farm your lane for the increased gold gain? Otherwise, you'll end up actually falling behind on gold while they slowly farm back to your level.

Either way you look at it, this helps the player that is behind still have a chance instead of just watching a game snowball completely out of control, which is an excellent system. It makes the playing field more level for all players no matter what champion they play or their personal skill level.
Yes, for a normal game, of course. But my Win/lose ratio has drammatically been reduced with lane bullies. Like Syndra for instance, I remember of games getting an early 5 kills climbing up to 10; 0 death and still losing in repetition.