@Morello, can you explain the design philosophy used for nerfing champions?

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Fox P McCloud

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Senior Member

12-17-2012

You say you want all champs balanced and viable for a top pick---why ignore Nasus then?

I've discussed this with you before, and I know that there's a few champs you're willing to let slide on design issues because of the repercussions of overhauling them completely...the only problem is, 2 of the 3 you listed (Jax and Soraka) are perfectly fine and legit picks and are viable.

Nasus, on the other hand has a horrendous win rate, isn't popular, and is one of the least viable champions in the game (minus melee carries, of course)---I realize Nasus players do like his infinite scaling, but this is also what forces him to have crummy laning and and out-dated kit...because, frankly, an infinite scaling right-click tank is OP if he can get there consistently.

You yourself stated that while it's all fun and games to enjoy an OP aspect of a champion, it's not healthy---why then do you guys refuse to rework Nasus? Jax and Soraka I can understand; they're generally fun, popular, and viable...but in general Nasus is none of these things (except fun and only if you got free farm for the past 15-20 minutes).


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shedim

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Morello, do you mind answering why you folks spent time, effort, love and ressources on creating the "Bonetooth Necklace" only to overnerf it a couple of weeks later. Noboy is buying that item anymore and quite honestly that's a sad thing.

Now that you nerfed Rengar massively, is there any chance you buff at least his item back to viability because honestly, what's the point of having a niche item being even more niche?


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ALLIIAN

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Senior Member

12-17-2012

Could you explain why you nerfed mid zyra so hard?


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TerminatusOmega

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by shedim View Post
One of your 25 FOTM picks is Ezreal. 1st choice AD carry in every major tournament eversince you released pulsefire. The only AD carry that competed with him was Corki, but since you nerfed him more than Ezreal, he basically vanished from the screen. Only Ezreal is left and usually picked as soon as possible. Does that look like variety to you?

You even managed to murder an unpopular, niche champion such as Urgot with your overzealous nerfs. Glad you're constantly using ~60 champions in tournaments, but it could easily be 80, if it wasn't for your occasional nerfbat rampages. You said you like champions to shine in certain situations. Where exactly does Urgot shine, now? What's his niche?

You're usually doing fine with balancing hence why people are shocked when you overnerf something every couple of months, or so.

Nerfbat killcount so far:
-Rammus
-Gangplank
-Heimerdinger
-Urgot
-Nautilus
-Tryndamere
-Rengar

Doesn't that make you a little bit sad, at least?
Quoted for truth


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Jiz Khalifa

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Senior Member

12-17-2012

Morello, you mentioned how people get used to a Champion's playstyle even though it is possibly OP and needs to be toned down, to make it balanced (not UP), and then they complain because they already got used to the "wrong" version - specific example, Diana's orbs.


However, these problems wouldn't exist in the first place if you left Champions in a testing phase longer, and didn't release them at such a frequent rate where things aren't guaranteed to be balanced.

You should really stop releasing Champs so early and leave them on PBE for a long time, maybe even include the community who frequently plays PBE with a poll wether the Champ is ready to be released? This would honestly fix 90% of all Champion specific discussions regarding buffs/nerfs.


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SteelerKing

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12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It depends on the situation and certainty - gradual changes are good for easing a character towards a more nerfed state, while drastic or faster nerfs are needed to solve more severe problems that are having a big impact. This is important because if a few champions are really out of line, they disallow use of any champions who compete with them for a slot on a team.
So basically you're saying

gradual changes = good for easing a character
drastic nerf = needed to solve more sever problems/having big impact

...did you really just reason the changes with the definition of the change necessity?
That's saying 100% nothing.


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SwiftSwrd

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12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjaipod View Post
riot nerf logic...

Attachment 576172

ಥ_ಥ
uhhh no - they took out spark cause it was a noob trap just like madreds


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xcipher64

Senior Member

12-17-2012

It sounds to me that the Diana nerfs were not properly tested, or if they were quickly tested the results were not seriously considered before giving her the nerf bat. You made her less OP sure, but do you make her pointless at the same time? I saw it mentioned that you wanted to make her Q a bit slower so people could dodge it, ok, but instead you destroy her shield and make her E pointless. The whole cohesian of the kit was destroyed and from what you said earlier the live test team is still arguing over it because they know the QQ from GD is accurate and the current statistics are showing it.

It is so bad that Diana is avoided now because she is so broke no one wants to even give her a try. Trundle gets more game time now then Diana.


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metalaug

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Morello and the "balance team" are a bunch of idiots, **** them.


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IonDragonX

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCIX View Post
On rengar, the problem I feel is deeper than numbers -- right now, his kit just flat does too much and he's gonna take so many individual nerfs it'll suck to use any part of his kit on his own. I've already given up on Rengar because it just isn't fun anymore, and seeing an originally fun assassin/bruiser (mostly assassin) get hit with the Irelia Effect is disappointing. Please ask live design/balance to consider this instead of just making him another lame duck succumbed to the perils of being a swiss army knife
We may agree here; he may have a fundamental flaw that prevents him from being satisfying and balanced. This concern is really salient to me.
I'm just trying to be helpful, mind you, but here are my thoughts on Rengar:
Quote:
Originally Posted by IonDragonX View Post
After all is said and done, they wanted to design Rengar to be a tanky jungle master with a great gap closer/initiate and super chasing skills.
They accidentally made a super sustain lane bully that has a fantastic escape for an ultimate.

I still think that to fix him:
1) Extend the Q and W stat buffs to 5 seconds.
2) Remove his Q's ability to hit structures.
3) Lower his W heal to 5%+(any AP ratio)
4) Increase his W's resistances by 5
5) Restore his health regen (base and per level) back to his original stat (8+)
6) Remove the delay on his R
7) Remove his R's stealth and passive when he is in combat (2 second rule)
8) Extend his R's buff to 7 seconds. (what it was before nerf)

The next thing you know, he's no longer an OP lane bully, can't use his R to escape very well. Has to set up his stealth for initiation almost exclusively, controls the jungle creep a lot better and doesn't push down towers like mad (hunter's don't hunt buildings.....)