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@Morello, can you explain the design philosophy used for nerfing champions?

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shedim

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Spitsonpuppies:
I've seen lots of caitlyns, miss fortunes, and ashes in competitive play (I don't watch THAT often, though). I don't think calling Ezreal the only one left is a fair statement, Shedim.


Sorry, I might have written it wrong. I never stated Ez is the only AD carry left.
I simply said you can't deny Ezreal is a top tier choice and usually the AD carry of choice for most players. Since you can't have Ezreal on both teams in ranked/tournament matches, people have to pick something else.

Ezreal is in almost every single game, not just tournament games. For ages! Can't wait for him to get overnerfed, because honestly I'm sick and tired of seeing him almost every game.


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Ralik098

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Ghatia Poisson:
On a more irrelevant note, when did you manage to get diamond? Looking at your season 2 stats and it doesn't seem feasible.

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/241271#ranked-stats


He got carried in 3s. =)


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Fahzad

Junior Member

12-17-2012

I think Diana's q hitbox is too big. Reduce it to match the particle and that solves a lot of the problems that you've nerfed her entire kit in an effort to solve.


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shedim

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Ghatia Poisson:
On a more irrelevant note, when did you manage to get diamond? Looking at your season 2 stats and it doesn't seem feasible.

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/241271#ranked-stats (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/redirect.php?do=verify&redirect_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lolking.net%2Fsummoner%2Fna%2F241271%23ranked-stats)


By overnerfing everything he couldn't lane against


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Warkeiser

Senior Member

12-17-2012

I find it interesting how you can see design philosophy change as you look back through the champions of a certain class.

An ADC like Tristana would never be released today, because she doesn't fit in with the current meta at all and is unlikely to ever again. Tristana was amazing back when solo lane ADCs were big because she's always been one of the strongest 1v1 carries. The flip side of that is she is also one of the most dangerous carries to play in lane, primarily because her escape is needed to burst and won't refresh unless she kills. When duo lanes came around, she suffered because it was harder for her to kill and more dangerous than ever for her to jump an opponent.

The most recently released ADCs and most popular ADCs have all had one thing in common: lane safety. Lane safety has become a necessity among ADCs, and the design philosophy behind them reflects that. Tristana is forced to forgo lane safety 100% of the time if she wants to use her old strength, while other AD carries may gain an advantage from forgoing safety but aren't forced to in order to use their strength. You hear the word "commitment" flying around, and that's not exactly a fitting term because two champions can commit equally, but one can escape easier. You must also consider engage and disengage. Tristana must commit just as much as any other carry, but the brunt of her engage is packed into her dash via big damage and a heavy slow. This means she can only disengage with a knockback unless she gets a kill.

Every other AD carry has their escape mechanism reserved exclusively for disengage unless the required commitment forces it to be used. In Tristana's case, any commitment forces the disengage to be used and it's not necessarily going to be enough to free up that disengage for re-use. Tristana stands as a relic of a bygone era of AD carry design, in my opinion.

Look at Tristana's kit. She seems like the perfect AD carry in a day where Graves, Ezreal, MF, Corki, and so on are popular. She's got big escape capabilities, big farm capabilities, can be incredibly safe... And yet, she's never seen in competitive play. The Chinese haven't picked her up like they did Ezreal. She's just faded away.

One final note: I thought about this when Kha'zix was released, for one very specific reason. Kha'zix is a melee assassin, and has the same engage/disengage tool as the one of the oldest ranged ADCs.


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Spearmints

Junior Member

12-17-2012

@morello.

I think what a lot of players (including myself) have trouble with is understanding what nerfs and buffs are supposed to do for a champion. Clearly make them play better or worse depending on what the community and you view is OP or UP about them but where is that next level? I recall videos used to be released talking about the nerfs / buffs items and champs were given and explained why. While I understand these are too hard to keep up with, they are useful.

Diana was a favorite champ of mine so I must inquire as to what she is supposed to do now? Before I would go mid lane and win, or wait till 6 then win. Now I can't do either (well I cant carry the baddies with her anymore). If their mid was good enough maybe I would just wait till late game to own.
She had ganking power ect. So alright she was OP.

You reduced damage on q. alright thats fine it makes her less scary pre 6 for sure. Reduce range on w and explosion range.... so now I need to e the wave of minions to kill them with the w? Also sometimes I will dash, yes you heard me, dash to an opponent and my w will not go off. or AA them and the w wont blow up. How is that fair at all. E sucks nuff said. and the ult.........

Diana's ult her most defining factor. it is now so short its almost impossible to follow up. You literally need to be super close (pointless right?) or flash to follow up. Did you do this because of her terrifying ganks and early game play? If so then why not allow the ult range to increase as the game goes on (think cait)?

I compare what you did you diana to say.... cutting lux's ult in half. if you did this... what would she be? not that long range nuke we all know and love. same thing for reducing oriana's ball control. this range nerf on skills really killed diana. surely you tested this before releasing it.


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Duke Br0heimer

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Morello:

I do love to imagine a perfect world where we can all have calm rational conversations about issues that bug players.

Have you been drinking again?


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KevinDelMarr

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
shedim:
You even managed to murder an unpopular, niche champion such as Urgot with your overzealous nerfs. Glad you're constantly using ~60 champions in tournaments, but it could easily be 80, if it wasn't for your occasional nerfbat rampages. You said you like champions to shine in certain situations. Where exactly does Urgot shine, now? What's his niche?


Whenever I see a Thread about "Balance" Urgot is the first that comes to mind. The scenario I see with him was "Well Urgot is 100% picked/banned in Tourney's, no one knows how to deal with him, so lets nerf everything and hope that solves the problem" It was a multitude of small nerfs that did him in, over a series of patches and in two major patches. Tankiness was too high, so his Shield and Ult were nerfed. Bulliness was too strong with little counterplay (kill him or hope he runs out of mana) so range on Q and E were nerfed. Ultimate was too effective at early levels, so it's range was nerfed as well. Morello/Riot went almost into a panic mode, where nerfing everything overtime and in one push was the easiest option to do at the time

Urgot is difficult because when powerful he is/was toxic, but when weak is practically useless (I almost want to use the Volibear scenario Morello stated earlier, where he is on the extremes of viability and strength). New items have definitely helped (muramana, BC especially) but I do think he has the same problems he has always had, described above. I am very intrigued to see what degree Riot will tweak his kit functionality to have healthier gameplay. But I do fear that once he gets strong Morello will be put into the same predicament, which should hopefully prompt a kit changes (because nerfing would only look disasterous).


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KingOfTheAnimes

Junior Member

12-17-2012

I know it's kind of a beaten horse, but regarding rengar: Please to god just remove his sustain and allow him to actually be an assassin again. He was my favorite champion bar none when he actually had his full ult duration and the higher ratio on his q. I know you guys talk a lot about delivering on fantasies, and being able to hit R, turn into the predator, and EAT the other team's ad carry (especially with the heartbeat sound effect!) was really what sold me on Rengar as a champion. Yeah, yeah, 'being op is fun,' but I seriously just couldn't enjoy playing Rengar any more when he was op in the manner of every top lane brick instead of in his own way.

So, again, if you do buff him back up, please buff him in the direction of what he's actually supposed to be: an ambush predator.


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PhoenixBomb

Recruiter

12-17-2012

If Diana's nerfs were placeholders, what's the point of removing her intended kit synergy? And if you don't agree that her shield is borked, you haven't played her. It's not really a matter of opinion that it no longer feels reliable.