@Morello, can you explain the design philosophy used for nerfing champions?

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KevinDelMarr

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogbiter View Post
so melee carries??? i know they aint as weak as GD makes it look as, but they bring some grade of unsatisfaction when you encounter they aint as effective (talking about efficience to carry a game) as they should when fed and the enemy is fed too, or when not fed and becoming useless lategame anyways.

or simply because they are not jax
That's the problem with getting AD carries viable-safe at high level play. Riot doesn't want a bunch if Jax's running around, which would happen if they were given any sort of significant CC and/or defensive steroids


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Sporadic P0tato

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by shedim View Post
I don't think that bending them over and brutally violating them with your nerfbat every week until they're nothing more than a mess that nobody wants to touch ever again is a good approach to balancing things. Why don't you just take your time and tweak numbers by making small changes over a period of multiple patches until the champion feels balanced, instead, rather than overnerfing it like an amateur? Mind sharing your thoughts with us or does your marketing department not allow you commenting on this?

While you're at it: Care to explain why you spend time, love and ressources creating an unique and amazing item such as the "Bonetooth Necklace" for a specific champion only to nerf it to pieces a couple of weeks before you decide to overnerf the champion, too? I just don't get it.

I don't think any of the issues people had with Rengar resulted from him having the "Noobtooth Necklace" hence no need to make it S2 Tiamat tier. Isn't it sad when you created something cool and nobody wants to waste an item slot for it, because somebody took a dump on it a couple of months ago and nobody spends gold on ****, right? Then proceeded to wipe his arse with the champion, but that's a different story.



Oh hey, no problem. Not like he's not viable for more than one year or so. Glad you noticed. How about buffing Gangplank while you're at it? You overnerfed him shortly after Rammus. Mind bringing him back to viability some day, too?
So much hyperbole and wild claims in this post its ridiculous. Its understandable to want answers on certain things Riot does, but to just make up claims on how Riot approaches things and then demand they explain that is, well to be quite honest stupid, and not how you get answers from someone.

I can't think of any time Riot has "brutally violated with the nerfbat every week" ANY champion, ever. Example of this please. :Why don't you just take your time and tweak numbers by making small changes....." - that is literally exactly what Riot has done. Look at patch notes and see for yourself. The teemo nerfs everyone was screaming about for example. A .1 ap nerf ratio on his Q, and a damage nerf to his shrooms (which aren't used for exclusive damage anyway). Look at the nerfs for Rengar. These were all done over the length of time he's been in league (a period over FOUR MONTHS), and everyone has been screaming after every nerf that each one still wasn't enough. "....Does your marketing dep. not allow you commenting on this"? - you just being a dick.

People like you getting hysterical over every single adjustment are what creates these problems in the first place. Take down your strawmans and take a breather, then maybe try again and you might be able to find an answer. Peace.


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zerodahero

Senior Member

12-17-2012

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Originally Posted by Mindus Dew View Post
To the people who are complaining about the recent nerfs going overboard, remember that this is still the preseason. This time period is meant to test and change frequently so that we can settle into a stable gamestate come the start of season 3. Things may not be 100% satisfactory to the populace now, but given Riot's track record, I'm sure a majority of us will be satisfied sooner rather than later.
yea im really satisfied that janna got nerfed out of competitive play and naut as well. Don't forget that kennen and rammus have disappeared also <3. Any thing popular gets nerfed is pretty much the name of the game


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HypnoticPoison

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Master Recruiter

12-17-2012

The best thing about Heimerdinger's grenade is so many new champions with gap closing melee skills saving you the pesky trouble of timing and aiming.


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PrincessDerpy

Senior Member

12-17-2012

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We may agree here; he may have a fundamental flaw that prevents him from being satisfying and balanced. This concern is really salient to me.
He's less of a swiss army knife champ and more of a champ with a swiss army knife spell.

His W does the following things

1. Damage
2. Free Resists
3. Heals when used with ferocity


Right now you have to ask yourself "when am I going to spend Ferocity on E or Q, if ever?" because not only is W so rewarding, but he's being BALANCED around it's presence so even with the nerfs he just keeps getting pressured into spending all of his Ferocity on it. Nerfing the numbers on this one really isn't going to fix it because it's honestly propping up the rest of his kit, which looks good, but fails the 'viable melee champ' litmus test.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is true - though Sejuani needs more than just jungle speed. She's less weak than she is unsatisfying and failing to deliver on being a good tank. If you take a look, Meddler is looking at broader changes for this.
There's multiple points that make her feel that way.

Perhaps the biggest one for me is that despite being the highlight of her kit, her E is, to be blunt, terrible. Her passive is also terrible and is trying to be propped up by a spell that is similarly not great, whose only purpose is to turn her passive into something worthwhile.

That's not a good place for passive -> spell interaction to be in.


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Ashandorath

Senior Member

12-17-2012

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I've sent this over to the engineering group - I can't provide an answer because this is near-rocket science to me. Sorry
just to point it out, autopathing is also having SERIOUS issues when your champion is moving through a minion line, sometimes forcing you to walk about a mile backwards before going around the minion you were trying to pass to begin with


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Fenix9000

Senior Member

12-17-2012

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Yeah - I'll have the guys take a look.

I'd like to point that there's two different things happening in this thread;

1) Players worry about the balance philosophy. That's the discussion of what we want to do and think about - what I talked about earlier in this thread. This is very, very important to me to get right and adjust as we get better and learn more (and make no mistake, there is no "done").

2) Players worry about balance accuracy. I actually worry about this a lot less; balance details are easy to fix if we're wrong (go go rapid patching game!) and will always, always, always be a primary subject of disagreement.

I also play a lot of games (and many incognito) and read their forums - every forum disagrees with specifics on balance changes or problems. I think the danger for us lies in if we have a bad balance philosophy, or see underlying issues (top lane stuff) as minutia within the champion balance. The Season 3 changes were us actually solving some o0f the problems that balance alone cannot.

Perfect balance isn't even a goal, nor is it important - but having a wide variety of usable picks (especially if they fit in the situational variety like my earlier Kog'Maw example) is a goal. Especially difficult is making them have interesting gameplay, be satisfying, and have strategic differences for why it might be good/bad to bring that champion to your game - and while difficult, this is far more important.

Even in this thread, we see people are worried about the details on two issues; Diana and Rengar. Maybe there's issues there (actually the live team are having a very heated balance discussion behind me as I post this!), and maybe it's "players are used to the old thing and it's weaker now." We're always open to being wrong, but frankly, more often-than-not we get it right or pretty close. This tells me that our philosophy is pretty good, and details will always be contentious - our job is to keep improving and get more accurate, as well as constantly evaluating our values on game design.
Glad to see that you and the balance team are discussing these issues.
One issue i have though is that it doesnt FEEL like you are listening to players feedback (not the QQ threads, but the well-thought-out threads and posts)
Would a comment from one of the balance team on a hot-topic thread, letting us know you are looking into the issue be too much to ask? (this thread being an exception)
Also giving reasoning for buffs/nerfs would be much appreciated
-Fenix


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Ben Caxton

Senior Member

12-17-2012

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
But problems of OP champions would linger much longer and lessen variety more. I think (and I'm not sure, but my instinct here) is that I'd rather be wrong more often than let the game stagnate to actual 25 FOTM picks. We sit consistently at ~60 used in tournaments, which is pretty good. By getting better at detailed changes rapidly, we can increase this - I'd like to have our cake and eat it too here.
Considering the vast number of variables and dependencies that go into champion balance in as complex as League of Legends, I personally think that may be a little ambitious.

If for instance you had nerfed two of Dianna's abilities this patch, then waited on feedback/statistics to finalize the numbers on the other two, would the added time of ~1 month have been too high of a price to pay for the additional accuracy?


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dogbiter

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinDelMarr View Post
That's the problem with getting AD carries viable-safe at high level play. Riot doesn't want a bunch if Jax's running around, which would happen if they were given any sort of significant CC and/or defensive steroids
if they were less dependant on autoattacks (wich would need RIOT to abandon their idea of a "melee carry" being someone who deals tons of dmg with AA) and focused a little more on active skills and something that actually made them able to carry a game, instead of "im carry because i do dmg, but im still useless because the enemy team is as fed as me and my team"


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Shadou

Senior Member

12-17-2012

most nerfs I see happening is when a champ is in a "flavor of the month" phase such as being used in tourny's used by top LoL teams and such, then next thing you know in a tournament the team wins and 2mins later forums, stream chat is spammed by omg OP need nerf blah blah blah.....weeks later we get a patch consisting a nerf of said champ....