Mercury Treads vs Boots of Swiftness [Math]

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SulfuricAcid

Senior Member

05-27-2013

Hey its SulfuricAcid again, owner of the Kayle thread back in the day, ( http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...t=sulfuricacid ). I've moved on to playing Singed in Dominion when Aether Wing Kayle got released and everyone and their dog played her and It's been great. Here to talk to you today about tenacity and the way it works.

When Singed got his tenacity removed I had to actually put some thought into which boots to wear and I've been in a mental struggle ever since that its put me into only buying Mercury Treads, until now! I need your help for my math when encountering a slow only enemy in bottom lane.

With alot of help from League of Legends Wiki and LoL Math from TrampolineTales on Youtube teaching me how tenacity works, ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k81BLGrakrM ) heres what I know.

Mercury Treads reduces the duration of stuns, slows, taunts, fears, silences, blinds and immobilizes are reduced by 35%. Today we'll be looking at the slows only.

Boots of Swiftness reduces the effectiveness of slows by 25%, not their duration. This means that while the slow will last as long as before, it will make it worth less.

On Singed I run with both Relentless and Tenacious which reduce the effectiveness of slows by 15% and reduces the duration of crowd control effects by 15%, respectfully.

Tenacity works multiplicatively when used correctly. Using TrampolineTales example, CC's value is the CC duration = (1 - tenacity) x (1 - tenacity). In his example, he used Dr.Mundo's infected cleaver which slows for 2 seconds by 40%. Lets fill in the tenacity values with a Singed with Mercury Treads and then with Boots of Swiftness against a slow.

Singed with Mercury Treads
2 second slow = 2 x (1 - 0.35) x (1 - 0.15)
2 second slow is only 1.105 seconds long, but still 40% slow. The slow effectiveness now gets taken into account. Singed has a base movement speed of 345 but is wearing Mercury Treads so that gets moved up to 390. For simplicity, lets assuming Im not ghosting or using Insanity Potion, but do have Relentless.

390 x (1 − (0.4 0.85)) = Z
390 x (1 - (0.34) = Z
390 x (0.66) = Z
Speed is now 257.4, or 258 movement speed, and only for 1.105 seconds. Singed under these circumstances would of traveled 285.09 units and then return to his usual 390 speed in which he would of traveled a usual 430.95 units if traveling for 1.105 seconds. In those 1.105 seconds, Singed lost 145.86 units of speed.

Singed with Boots of Swiftness
2 second slow = 2 x (1 - 0.15)
2 second slow is now 1.7 seconds long. Now for the speed Boots of Swiftness pushes Singed's movement speed to 405. Slow reduction also stacks multiplicatively.

405 x (1 - (0.4 x 0.85 x 0.75)) = Z
405 x (1 - (0.225) = Z
405 x (0.775) = Z
Speed is now 313.875, or 314 and lasts for 1.7 seconds. Singed under these circumstances would of traveled 533.8 units and then returned to his usual 405 speed in which he would of traveled a usual 688.5 units if traveling for 1.7 seconds. In those 1.7 seconds, Singed lost 154.7 units of speed.

Conclusions

What does this all mean? I honestly don't know. We used Dr.Mundo's slow of 40% for 2 seconds but slows vary in strength as a Cassiopia with a Rylai's Crystal Scepter at only 15% for 1.5 seconds, and as strong was Thresh with 99% for 2 seconds. As no team in Dominion only uses slows, I've come to the conclusion of continuing to using Mercury Treads at all times. While Singed's game is chase or be chased, I feel that Boots of Swiftness blow.

Opinions? Math corrections? Place them all here. Open thread for all discussion.
(Just realized I forgot to count in Movement Speed Quints, but Its too late. Mercury Treads all the way.)


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kavi

Senior Member

05-27-2013

Your math looks good, and I think your conclusions are correct.

I would only add two things:

- CC and related stats (particularly cdr, movement speed, and tenacity) are very hard to calculate in terms of "value". You mention that teams which only slow on Dominion are rare, but the fact that you point it out illustrates the problem: the overall value of these stats is much more intangible than other stats and much more relative to team compositions, synergy, coordination, etc. For example, if you're in solo queue against a Xerath or a Brand, you might be better off stacking ms in order to dodge their stun combo rather than buying tenacity to get out of it faster.

- ms tends to be more effective on characters with a lower base movement speed, even on Dominion. Singed has a relatively high base movement speed. Tenacity, on the other hand, works much better when you already have another form of tenacity (from masteries, in this case). Put another way, the ability to move at 360 instead of 300 woud be vastly more significant than the ability to move at 405 instead of 345.


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konfetarius

Senior Member

05-27-2013

Quote:
Slow reduction also stacks multiplicatively.
Additively.

Also, Singed's game is die a horrible death if he doesn't do enough damage. Go Sorc Shoes and stop losing lanes you should be winning.


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BeefJerkyHunter

Senior Member

05-27-2013

What if you use Boots of Swiftness + Zephyr?!?!?!?!?!
Well, you wouldn't use that one Singed, but... yeah....


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SulfuricAcid

Senior Member

05-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by konfetarius View Post
Additively.

Also, Singed's game is die a horrible death if he doesn't do enough damage. Go Sorc Shoes and stop losing lanes you should be winning.
My good sir, its multiplicatively as according to League of Legends Wiki at http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wik...ree_Mastery%29 and FeralPony him / herself said so too as well as the Relentless mastery in the client. As for the Sorcerer Shoes, sure its a fine idea if thats what you're into. Im not always bottom lane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeefJerkyHunter View Post
What if you use Boots of Swiftness + Zephyr?!?!?!?!?!
Well, you wouldn't use that one Singed, but... yeah....
All that ARAM I did pushed my match history down of when I was using Hextech Sweeper on Singed for that 10% movement speed, but it was great. Its a good idea if you're team doesnt need a Aegis of the Legion.


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kavi

Senior Member

05-27-2013

FeralPony is a he, and I actually think konfetarius is right ... a few other ingame tests posted on the forums as recently as Feburary seem to suggest that it's actually additive.

Wiki is always wrong because nobody edits it


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BeefJerkyHunter

Senior Member

05-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SulfuricAcid View Post
All that ARAM I did pushed my match history down of when I was using Hextech Sweeper on Singed for that 10% movement speed, but it was great. Its a good idea if you're team doesnt need a Aegis of the Legion.
Zephyr also has Tenacity and that's why I threw it out there.


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Warmeat

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Senior Member

05-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SulfuricAcid View Post
Hey its SulfuricAcid again, owner of the Kayle thread back in the day, ( http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...t=sulfuricacid ). I've moved on to playing Singed in Dominion when Aether Wing Kayle got released and everyone and their dog played her and It's been great. Here to talk to you today about tenacity and the way it works.

When Singed got his tenacity removed I had to actually put some thought into which boots to wear and I've been in a mental struggle ever since that its put me into only buying Mercury Treads, until now! I need your help for my math when encountering a slow only enemy in bottom lane.

With alot of help from League of Legends Wiki and LoL Math from TrampolineTales on Youtube teaching me how tenacity works, ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k81BLGrakrM ) heres what I know.

Mercury Treads reduces the duration of stuns, slows, taunts, fears, silences, blinds and immobilizes are reduced by 35%. Today we'll be looking at the slows only.

Boots of Swiftness reduces the effectiveness of slows by 25%, not their duration. This means that while the slow will last as long as before, it will make it worth less.

On Singed I run with both Relentless and Tenacious which reduce the effectiveness of slows by 15% and reduces the duration of crowd control effects by 15%, respectfully.

Tenacity works multiplicatively when used correctly. Using TrampolineTales example, CC's value is the CC duration = (1 - tenacity) x (1 - tenacity). In his example, he used Dr.Mundo's infected cleaver which slows for 2 seconds by 40%. Lets fill in the tenacity values with a Singed with Mercury Treads and then with Boots of Swiftness against a slow.

Singed with Mercury Treads
2 second slow = 2 x (1 - 0.35) x (1 - 0.15)
2 second slow is only 1.105 seconds long, but still 40% slow. The slow effectiveness now gets taken into account. Singed has a base movement speed of 345 but is wearing Mercury Treads so that gets moved up to 390. For simplicity, lets assuming Im not ghosting or using Insanity Potion, but do have Relentless.

390 x (1 − (0.4 0.85)) = Z
390 x (1 - (0.34) = Z
390 x (0.66) = Z
Speed is now 257.4, or 258 movement speed, and only for 1.105 seconds. Singed under these circumstances would of traveled 285.09 units and then return to his usual 390 speed in which he would of traveled a usual 430.95 units if traveling for 1.105 seconds. In those 1.105 seconds, Singed lost 145.86 units of speed.

Singed with Boots of Swiftness
2 second slow = 2 x (1 - 0.15)
2 second slow is now 1.7 seconds long. Now for the speed Boots of Swiftness pushes Singed's movement speed to 405. Slow reduction also stacks multiplicatively.

405 x (1 - (0.4 x 0.85 x 0.75)) = Z
405 x (1 - (0.225) = Z
405 x (0.775) = Z
Speed is now 313.875, or 314 and lasts for 1.7 seconds. Singed under these circumstances would of traveled 533.8 units and then returned to his usual 405 speed in which he would of traveled a usual 688.5 units if traveling for 1.7 seconds. In those 1.7 seconds, Singed lost 154.7 units of speed.

Conclusions

What does this all mean? I honestly don't know. We used Dr.Mundo's slow of 40% for 2 seconds but slows vary in strength as a Cassiopia with a Rylai's Crystal Scepter at only 15% for 1.5 seconds, and as strong was Thresh with 99% for 2 seconds. As no team in Dominion only uses slows, I've come to the conclusion of continuing to using Mercury Treads at all times. While Singed's game is chase or be chased, I feel that Boots of Swiftness blow.

Opinions? Math corrections? Place them all here. Open thread for all discussion.
(Just realized I forgot to count in Movement Speed Quints, but Its too late. Mercury Treads all the way.)
Boots of Swiftness just lets Singed able to outrun the enemy since they can be ranged with Mercury you still run fast thus being able to catch up, thats the biggest thing with singed is being faster than the enemys, i feel thru the years people forgot this. also Singed reccomened build is bad, i like to use use Singed's passive more than most.


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MMKH

Senior Member

05-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by konfetarius View Post
Also, Singed's game is die a horrible death if he doesn't do enough damage. Go Sorc Shoes and stop losing lanes you should be winning.
Ever since his nerf on his Fling AP ratio and CC reduction removal on ult, I don't think it is very effective to run a glass AP build Mad Scientist Singed anymore IMO. Especially not with the current pool of OPs out there that outrange and outdamage him.


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Warmeat

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Senior Member

05-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMKH View Post
Ever since his nerf on his Fling AP ratio and CC reduction removal on ult, I don't think it is very effective to run a glass AP build Mad Scientist Singed anymore IMO. Especially not with the current pool of OPs out there that outrange and outdamage him.
i agree i think Singed is better played like he used to as a Tank who CC'd and Initiated. my problem with playing AP SInged as is the norm(BFT/Ryla) is HP is not being a tank as for damage it's debatable if turning on and off your poison and running out of poison mid fight"does more damage" than it being on and always refreshing and the trail being in a wide area for a long time.i recentley been playing singed like i used to in Beta and it alot more efficent IMO, Mpen/armor/MRlvl runes HP Quints
Rush Frozen heart/Swiftness or Mobi Boots if mostly ad
Rush Seph Embrace/Same boots
Frozen heart/Seph embrace(tear first then build Frozen heart)/ROA/Abysal Scepter
last item iceborn gauntlets if there mostly ad or Manamune for a huge AD Boost and mana and ap from passive and Seph embrace passive.

this is a tanky singed that no ad can't take with some MR to do well vs AP champs, he will have 200+ ap and do good decent damage, but mostly he can fight AD bruisers and AP carrys equally because of all the HP he gets from his mana passive , he build all these items that if another tank built they would have signifcantly less HP. Find me another build that give him = Armor=mr and also getting the 200 ap and ad the Manamune does help with hp(singed passive)/ap(from Seph passive) but the main thing your notice is when you flip a AP and melee him you actually does 100+ more damage, there you 50damage they took from the flip right there.

Frozen hear(gives mana)t + Seph Embrace built = 500hp from passive(your be at 2kmana) 20% AS Debuff great Armor and a great Active shield for ap bursters 168 ap(not from items but seph plus it's passive that =3% ap per your mana) at this point with singed
VS
Black Fire torch + Rylajs Crystal Scepter 750hp 160 ap slow and extra dot and magic pen, but no mana to waste at all and Darius can 2 shot you and as an other chmp since you have zero resist first build can atleast build MR next with second build you have to decide MR or armor way to late in the game for a "tank"