Looking for Sejuani Feedback

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DEagleEye

Senior Member

01-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTaur View Post
What are you talking about? The part where she has to actually land a skill shot to get a stun? That's the only thing I remember you complaining about in the rework, and I still don't know why you're against having to land a skill shot to land an AoE stun. Even when everyone used to think that Sejuani was awful, it was almost universally agreed that Sejuani's ult was super-good, maybe too good.

I don't mind losing out on a few stuns because my aim is off. I haven't earned those stuns.

Maybe Ashe's R should be heat-seeking, idk. It would have less available counterplay, so why not?
her ult is a skill shot now. Im not against it at all, i dont know where you got this from.
DO u mean what QoL change i was talking about, thats might ruin her?

I meant the fix on her passive that is planned, Moving it onto her E leaves her innate open. And the removal of the slow hurts her Q. Thus whatever this new passive is, its either gonna replace that loss of CC on Q or not. And if it doesnt, then changes will need to be made elsewhere, to add a CC on Q, which, imo, would ruin her feel, and thus ruin the champ as we know it.

Im definelty not against her ult being a skillshot, its a skillshot now. And all i want is for her to stay as close to what she is now as possible.

Im open to the idea of her ult only slowing if it reaches max range. But i dont like it. Because often times, i miss on purpose, so i can stun more targets.
Rather than hit the tank at the front, and stun him for 2 seconds and the bruiser for 1 seconds. Often i Miss on purpose, to get it to explode and max range, and stun all 5 for 1 second. its an option on her ult i really really like, and would be sad to see go.
But I am open to it.
Like i said, it all hinges on this new innate.


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Whyumai

Senior Member

01-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEagleEye View Post
But you cant initiate with no risk. There is always risk involved. Just using R, you accomplish nothing, You need to follow in with Q, and depending on how far you are from them when R hits, the more riskier that is. They further they are away, the riskier the move becomes.
Again, you just R with Sejuani. It stuns enemy team. You have initiated. You can do that from 1150 range.

Where's the risk?

You don't need to follow with Q, you can follow up with Q, but you don't *need* to. Your team just needs to go all stompy on the enemy team while they are stunned.

Yeah, it does require team work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEagleEye View Post
Further, I agree, a free kill before they get to attack back is always preferred.
But its a ranged ult. And you have a charge to keep up with it. Unless you have allies with similar charges, or a follow up CC, it is increasingly difficult for your teammates to reach the stunned targets before the stun wears off.
Statistically speaking. It IS better to ult later on, because not only can you do the same amount of damage as if you ulted to initiate, but further, you can heal back parts of the damage you have taken.
Once again, its situational, and its a good thing to have. But saying her initiation is riskless, is only true for ulting when within Q range, and thats not all the time, and even then, its not.
You can follow your R up with your Q. You don't have to. See, Amumu has to be in range for his ultimate to hit anyone. That's why his Q into R is generally needed, because otherwise his R doesn't hit anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEagleEye View Post
It depends who dies, but i generally agree, problem is getting somebody to die cause ur team is far away. That doesnt mean her ult needs changing. It means her ult is difficult to pull of while working with your team, which is fair considering its power.
It really isn't that hard to pull off. There are much more complicated ultimates to pull off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEagleEye View Post
It makes perfect sense. What if your chasing Kassadin cause you saw him on a ward, and just jumped over a wall to close the gap. What if you have initiated with Q, and they have split up and started running, cause they know they cant beat you. Q is good for applying frost, or closing gaps. You use it in those instances. So, there are plenty of times when it can be on CD just because your trying to close a gap, or used it to catch out an assasin lurking in the brush, and now your off to initiate on the rest of the team.
If you see a Kassadin and you waste your Q trying to get close to him without hitting him, you're stupid. The cooldown on Q is such that most instances you won't get a chance to use it again, particularly since it's your main form of escape with Sejuani, that's just a bad idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEagleEye View Post
Just as its entirely possible if Sejuani uses R and goes in with Q, shes dead anyway.
Theres also a major difference here. If Sejuani bombs her Ult, its gone, no stun for a while. If Amumu blows Q, 8 seconds, go again.
Even then. Thats not the only difference, If Sejuani initiates with R, and then follows up with Q or just runs in, the CC has generally worn off by the time you reach. Your major CC is used up before significant damage can be dealt.
Amumu initiates with Q, and then uses R, Alright his team might not follow in immediately, or might be to slow. But the difference is, Amumu's Q is the singal to go in, while for Sejuanis its her R. Thus Amumu Q's, and then uses R, even if his team are delayed, Q was the signal, so his major CC still comes in after thus allowing them more time to get in.
With Sejuani, the R is the signal, if they dont react immediatly, any follow up will be disastorous. Both ults have their strong and weak points. Thats not bad. You dont need to make Sejuani's ult different, leave it as is.
Again, you don't have to follow up your R with your Q. You can. You don't have to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEagleEye View Post
Pink wards also exist, when pushing hard you should be warding as hard if not harder than they are. At any stage of that plan, amumu can easily jump in with Q over the wall. So even if they do notice you missing and initiate, your 1 Q away, and then R.
it's tricky with Q, while it's reasonably long range, it's not that long a range, there's certainly instances where breaking off will separate you further from the group than a Q can get you back from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEagleEye View Post
Actually, its almost 100% more effective to use Sejuani's Q immediately after her R. Because then, you get into the fighting faster than if you just walked up to them. Which allows W to do more damage because its getting bonus from frost for longer.

Im agreeing in part with you, everything in this game is situational. Sometimes its more effective, sometimes the other way is. Thats the whole point of a live-action non turn-based strategy game, which is what LoL basically is.
I agree that circumstances can determine usage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEagleEye View Post
Exaclty what Ive been saying. However you seem to think the same thing has the best effect no matter the situation. Thats far from true. There are other ways to use your abilities which would prove more effective in differing situations.

Sejuanis Q is not only a gap closer. Its very good for farming and pushing waves combined with W. Further on top of that, it is an alternative method of applying aoe frost. When you collide or meach max distance, theirs a small aoe explosion. Those in range, get frosted. Its not just for gap closing. Far from it. Multiple times i want to slow multiple target, and my R is down, I just Q into a position that i know will apply frost to all of them.
And you see, thats the trap with Sejuani. Malph initiates, his team will see him in the middle of the enemy, they will go in. If Sejuani ults, because your not in immediate danger, theres actually less chance will follow it up.
I disagree that Sejuani's Q is good for farming or wave clearing. I feel if you do that you are likely to run out of mana. Also, Q is your only escape in the lane phase and it's got a long cooldown.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEagleEye View Post
Further, if they dont support Malph, and he dies, its immediate knowledge not to teamfight, defence time. If you dont follow up on Sejuani ult, the mindset is 'shes still here, we can fight' which while true, its not really advised.
You forget, champs like Malphite have defensive steriods for a reason. Sejuani's ult is one of the reasons she doesnt need one. And thats AWESOME. Why would you want to create a carbon copy of tanks we already have?
I don't feel my suggestion was a carbon copy of other tanks. I feel Sejuani would have been interesting and different while being a more capable pick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEagleEye View Post
No, its not on live yet, but meddler has all but confirmed its going to happen 100%. And seeing how its a QoL change every single Sejuani player on this thread seems to agree with, i doubt they wont do it.
Frankly, I've heard Rioters "confirm" changes that didn't happen before. If it's not on live there is no guarantee that those changes will happen. Those changes won't necessarily happen. That's not a dig at Riot btw, it's just that alot can happen between now and when the changes actually happen. It's why I'm still suggesting changes now, even when it looks like the changes are "set". Because until they happen on Live, they haven't happened yet, and really are subject to change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEagleEye View Post
Amumu is similarly weak early game jungle. Maybe not quite as weak as Sejuani, but still weak. Amumu rarely fits anywhere apart from jungler, same as sejuani.,k. Which means she can be fit on a team, and thus, imo, based on those 2, and equal pick to amumu. Sejuani's W is also strong, and while the damge on E isnt strong, a 70% slow on all 5 enemies is HUGE. I forget whats the slow during Nunu's ult, but i think they are fairly close together.
I dont get why people say shes hard to fit on a team. I dont find this problem. How is she hard to fit on a team? She fits in as a jungler, that tanks and initiates, thats her role. Further, she does sizeable aoe damage, and can take it 1v1 with most any adc, and some ap's and tops. Bruisers is where she struggles. its not hard to fit that into a team, not at all.
I feel Amumu is a more capable jungler than Sejuani, and, therefore would be easier to justify on a team than Sejuani. Amumu ganks before level 6 are typically better (imo) than Sejuani since Amumu has hard cc. Amumu ganks at level 6 are hard to compare. Sejuani's ultimate is arguably better than Amumu for single target ganks, but Amumu also has hard cc on his Q, so it's a hard one to judge. Similar arguments for Malphite, Maokai, Shen, etc. Although, Shen is a special case because he's got infinite jungle. Also I think Amumu is better at securing objectives without items and probably better duelist at lower levels.

Damage on Sejuani's Q and E is weak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEagleEye View Post
Her ganks before level 6 rarely fail for me. I max E first though, not W. Gank to apply CC, not to damage, and you'll do fine. Id argue that she can be on par with amumu for pre 6 ganks. However, nobody beats maokais pre-6 ganks, apart from perhaps a jungle Blitz (which is quite viable) thats a well known fact.
I still feel amumu has the edge pre 6 on jungle ganks. Longer range on his Q and hard cc is tough to beat with slows particularly since you have to get frost on them before you can effectively use perma frost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEagleEye View Post
As she stands currently, no her Q cant be buffed, I dont want it to be buffed.
But we are here talking about her rework, not her currently. SO
With the propsed changes to her passive, the loss of the slow does provide room for either a direct buff to q, some from of roots at collision.
OR
if the new innate interacts with Q to apply some sort of CC.
Again, I'll comment on the changes when/if they get on live.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEagleEye View Post
Maxing E first means you have more ganking presence, and thus more pressure on the lanes, cause your ganks are more effective. Thats how you control the objectives, make them to scared and to weak to take them.
I honestly find no problem with it, at all. I have differeing rune set depending on what i need with her. I can either run health and ap, and thus, maxing E first is no worries, cause i have more damage to jungle.
OR, i can run armour and gp5's, which is a more defensive rune build if im worried about counter-jungling. This way i get to build my items significantly faster, thus allowing me to counter-act the strength of the jungle easier. And also scale easier into her late-game deadliness.
Counter jungling is a real issue with sejuani and between levels 1-3 I feel she's really an easy kill. Someone earlier suggested running flat health regen, which might be an interesting option. I'll have to try it when I grind the IP up for those runes (assuming I don't have them already, I'm not honestly sure).

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEagleEye View Post
Im against changing her because she doesnt need it, QoL changes are the limit of what she needs, nothing more.
However, i have resigned myself to the fact that change is going to happen. My role now is to make sure that absurb changes that ruin the champion dont occur. Your suggestion on changing her ult to melee range, will ruin her.
I don't agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEagleEye View Post
Like I have said, we have Sejuani now, as she is, keep her. You want a champion as your suggesting, Make a new one.
I feel like changes are coming, so, might as well suggest something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEagleEye View Post
When they re-worked Katarina, they failed imo. It wasnt a rework. It was a re-creation. They utterly and completely changed the champion. Thats not a rework.

I dont want them to do that with Sejuani. Leave Sejuani as she is. And then make a new champion to satisfy those who are unhappy with Sejuani. You dont change a champion thats already created. You balance them. If you want to do something else with a similar them, make it from scratch.
Make a random Tank with a defensive steriod and a melee range ult. Dont change a current champ to fit into the role of a new champ.
When you re-work a champ, you keep their feel, and their identity, and you dont touch whats core to them.
I feel like an un-played champion is a wasted champion. Sejuani is at around 2% play rate, and she's consistently in the bottom 20 champions being used.


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Vicarious

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Adjudicator

01-31-2013

Her cooldowns on everything are too long.


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DEagleEye

Senior Member

01-31-2013

Im gonna put what i want with Sej in 1 point, so people stop getting confused.

1) I DONT want Sejuani to change. I want her to stay EXACTLY the same. I only WANT QoL changes.

2) Changes, appear to be inevitable. SO, i have resigned myself to this, and thus any posts on changes I make, are in an effort to keep her as much as herself as possible.

3) With her current innate appearing to go to E, AND losing a slow. I want Q to re-gain some form of CC because it has lost this 10% slow. Shes also lost the slow on her auto's so some form of CC on her Q can help make up for this.
3a) Whether this CC on Q comes from a direct buff on Q, or as an effect that her new passive brings in, I dont really mind.

4) I want her new passive to match her current kit. I also dont want any of her current kit to be sacrificed to allow for a more powerful innate or a CC on Q. Id rather not have a CC on q and leave her kit the same, than the opposite.
4a) I am OPEN to the change in her ult, where at max range it only slows rather than stuns, in an attempt to add room to buff her Q. However, my acceptance of this depends on
- the amount and length of the slow
- the type and amount of CC added to her Q
- changes to Cooldowns of her Q and R

5) One of the QoL changes i want applied is her base scaling. That is, her starting numbers of Hp, and Armour, possible Magic Resist and Attack Speed as well.
She is, arguably, weaker than any other jungler on her first clear. What i want is a re-distribution of her power towards early game a bit more.
That is, make her start with a higher amount of armour and HP, but make it so she gains less armour and Hp per level. That way, at level 18, she has the same base strength.
With this, we can lesson, Only slightly lesson, her weakness early on, while keeping her mid-game and late-game base stats, essentially the same.
It would also allow her to more readily play other roles than jungler.
For example.
Buff her Lvl 1 hp by 34 hp. Then, remove from her 2 hp from her hp per lvl gain. This way, early game, shes marginally stronger, late game, shes exactly the same.
Buff her Lvl 1 armour by 1. Then remove 0.058 armour from her armour per lvl gain. Likewise, her early game is marginally stronger, but late game shes exactly the same.

TLDR : The only changes i want are QoL changes. That is, make her mark for E unnafected by tenacity, and reduce her weakness early game but leave late game the same.

Her mark is losing its CC, so i want Q to be fairly compensated, either with a direct buff or through an interaction with her passive.

I dont want her Other skills to change in order to accomplish this.

However I am open to changes, and will judge them based on how i feel it will affect Sejuani's current playstyle. because in the end, I want that to change as minimally as possible/probable.
Thus, any changes to her current abilites in order to buff another ability, particularly Q, would require to fit her current playstyle, or fairly compensate for the loss of options by opening up new options.


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DEagleEye

Senior Member

01-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicarious View Post
Her cooldowns on everything are too long.
No, not really.
Her cooldown on Q is too long for what it does, otherwise i think everything is perfect.


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Cloudpost

Member

01-31-2013

Her first clear can be incredibly brutal health wise, leaving her really susceptible to harass from the enemy jungler. I actually like the fact that there is a way to counter her through counter jungling, but it should be because she is a poor fighter early and not because she takes such a beating from jungle camps. The enemy jungler should be able to force her to flee or lose a one on one fight early on, not pick up a free kill simply by walking into her jungle.

Another problem I have with her is the fact that she doesn't really benefit from the two standard rune pages. Some people, myself included, have only two rune pages. One page for AD and another for AP. Sejuani's W could maybe scale a little more off of AP and a little less off of health. This would give her stronger early game clears, a weaker late game when just building raw tank, and give her more variable builds.

Q doesn't feel like it should apply a slow, it feels like it should do something else. You are being rammed by a boar, that feels like it should be a short stun (perhaps too powerful) or have another effect.

Her R should still stun in an area, though you could reduce the area if you feel like it is too powerful. However, if you make it only on hit it will just feel like a lame Ashe ult. Maybe it could be an onhit stun but not explode when it makes contact with its first victim. Perhaps it could have some kind of curvature rather than being a straight line, like a boomerang or something. It would be interesting to see a skillshot like that. Maybe it could be nerfed so that it only stuns a single target, but also be capable of having a Ohmreckeresque tower stun for diving ganks. These ideas on her ultimate I am completely unconfident about, just brainstorming.

I like the idea of moving her passive to a passive attached to E, this makes 100% sense.

All things considered though I love Sejuani and her kit. I'd be happy if you didn't change her at all. I just hope that when she comes out of the grinder she doesn't feel like a completely different champion.


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DEagleEye

Senior Member

01-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whyumai View Post
Again, you just R with Sejuani. It stuns enemy team. You have initiated. You can do that from 1150 range.

Where's the risk?

You don't need to follow with Q, you can follow up with Q, but you don't *need* to. Your team just needs to go all stompy on the enemy team while they are stunned.

Yeah, it does require team work.



You can follow your R up with your Q. You don't have to. See, Amumu has to be in range for his ultimate to hit anyone. That's why his Q into R is generally needed, because otherwise his R doesn't hit anything.



It really isn't that hard to pull off. There are much more complicated ultimates to pull off.



If you see a Kassadin and you waste your Q trying to get close to him without hitting him, you're stupid. The cooldown on Q is such that most instances you won't get a chance to use it again, particularly since it's your main form of escape with Sejuani, that's just a bad idea.



Again, you don't have to follow up your R with your Q. You can. You don't have to.



it's tricky with Q, while it's reasonably long range, it's not that long a range, there's certainly instances where breaking off will separate you further from the group than a Q can get you back from.



I agree that circumstances can determine usage.



I disagree that Sejuani's Q is good for farming or wave clearing. I feel if you do that you are likely to run out of mana. Also, Q is your only escape in the lane phase and it's got a long cooldown.



I don't feel my suggestion was a carbon copy of other tanks. I feel Sejuani would have been interesting and different while being a more capable pick.



Frankly, I've heard Rioters "confirm" changes that didn't happen before. If it's not on live there is no guarantee that those changes will happen. Those changes won't necessarily happen. That's not a dig at Riot btw, it's just that alot can happen between now and when the changes actually happen. It's why I'm still suggesting changes now, even when it looks like the changes are "set". Because until they happen on Live, they haven't happened yet, and really are subject to change.



I feel Amumu is a more capable jungler than Sejuani, and, therefore would be easier to justify on a team than Sejuani. Amumu ganks before level 6 are typically better (imo) than Sejuani since Amumu has hard cc. Amumu ganks at level 6 are hard to compare. Sejuani's ultimate is arguably better than Amumu for single target ganks, but Amumu also has hard cc on his Q, so it's a hard one to judge. Similar arguments for Malphite, Maokai, Shen, etc. Although, Shen is a special case because he's got infinite jungle. Also I think Amumu is better at securing objectives without items and probably better duelist at lower levels.

Damage on Sejuani's Q and E is weak.



I still feel amumu has the edge pre 6 on jungle ganks. Longer range on his Q and hard cc is tough to beat with slows particularly since you have to get frost on them before you can effectively use perma frost.



Again, I'll comment on the changes when/if they get on live.



Counter jungling is a real issue with sejuani and between levels 1-3 I feel she's really an easy kill. Someone earlier suggested running flat health regen, which might be an interesting option. I'll have to try it when I grind the IP up for those runes (assuming I don't have them already, I'm not honestly sure).



I don't agree.



I feel like changes are coming, so, might as well suggest something.



I feel like an un-played champion is a wasted champion. Sejuani is at around 2% play rate, and she's consistently in the bottom 20 champions being used.
Again, hitting R, but not following it in, is not an initiation. Its basically poking. And by nature, following it in, creates risk.

Your ult is long range, unless your team if ahead of you when you cast your ult, it is rare that they can reach the stunned targets before you do, even if you dont use your Q. Just becuase you react faster to your ult, cause you know its coming.

Like i said, hitting Sejuanis R but not following in is wasting an ability with a long CD.
With amumu, its alot easier, you can basically say, "If my Q lands, follow me in cause i will be ulting". But with Sejuani, you cant say "if my R lands, follow it in" becuase the time when you throw your ult is unpredicatable, becuase it depends on how many targets your aiming to hit, and which target.
In the end, it is easier to succefully initiate and collapse on an enemy team with amumu, than with Sejuani. Thats one of the reasons he gets banned, but she doesnt.

Everyhing is hard in Solo Que man, everything. Considering i play ranked exclusively, pulling off a sej ult where your entire team follows you in, and gets a kill before stun wears off. Quite hard, unless you have a burst.
Not saying its as hard as other ults, but its definetly not as easy as it looks either. Remember, your trying to hit all 5. You could be walking around, preparing to ult for 5 minutes, before a perfect opportunity comes up.

If ulting to hit the stun at max range? Yea you pretty much have to use Q, otherwise they just gonaa walk away before you get their.

And yea, obviously, Like i said, its an option. Not a must take route. When i get a chance to play Amumu, if were working for a teamfight, i rarely get further away than Q distance. Its a decision I make.

Circumstance can determine usage? Gotta take it further than that man. Your usage is all about circumstances. Do you jump over wall with Q to get the enemy ADC, or do you Q at their tank whos chasing your ADC, so that you can apply 70% slow to him and save your ADC? Well, id say, you got a leona, ali, taric support. GO for the enemy. You got nobody to help your adc, go help him.
Circumstances should always dictate how you use your abilities, and always dictate how effective different usages are.

I dont lane her, but your rigth, laning her, its hard to farm with Q cause of CD and mana.
When jungling, its a different story, and i dont find it a problem, some might, i dont.
Cooldown is only 11 seconds, its not all that long, espeically if youve got good wards and team support.

Well, i feel it is. Amumu's ult already does what you propose Sejuani's ult to do, at a smaller range. Thus making q necesary to initiate. Thus requiring some sort of tank steriod. Thus making her a carbon copy.

Yea i agree, But your suggestion on the ult, like i said before, is just ruining her feel, which is why im completely against it. Changes that keep whats cool and unique about her are fine, I'll consider those. Changes like this where your completelu altering an ability and its usage. im just not even gonna consider it. It changes the champ, an immediate no.

Id agree, amumu is more capable jungle pre-6. After that though, i think sejuani catches up and starts pulling away, cause of her hp scaling damage.
Its easier to hit sejuanis Q than amumus, due to the splash at the end. Thus applying frost is rarely a problem. Following it with a 50% slow, is awesome. The problem then is trying to dish out enough damage before they reach their tower. usually its not a problem, but it can be.
Amumu's q's in, and that it, 1 second stun, u can flash away, and you home free.
Thats why i think the slow puts her on par with amumu. the slow continues to affect after the flash, making it very easy to catch up.
Securing objective, i dunno, i guess its just how your team is going. While sejuani is weak early. After boots and giants belt or chain mail, shes actually pretty easy to invade with. Also cause her ganks are strong, you have strong lane pressure, making it harder for them to drag, etc.
Q damage is weak, But E damage isnt, its a nice amount of burst, usually equating to 1/8th or 1/4 of an adc's hp all game long. its pretty good. Good for securing kills after a last minute flash.

Honestly, she weak most at red buff. If they gank you just after you Q into the red camp, or just as your within smiting range of it, thats when you are in real danger. At the beginging of red, cause uve lost ur escape. And at the end of red, cause ur low on hp and ur waiting for ur hp pots to regen you up. But other than that, shes not too bad.

Im not saying ur ult suggestion is bad, im saying its bad for the champ. It will ruin Sejuani as the champ she is now. it will make her into a new champ, with different gameplay, thats why it will ruin her.

Changes are fine, so long as they keep Sejuani, not create a new champ with same model and name.

She doesnt need major changes to be played more. Since S3 started, her play rate has noticably gone up alot. With these rework threads, Im sure its gone up again. If the rework goes through,and they hype it up. Even though the changes might only be QoL changes, it will generate interest, and more people will pick her up. She doesnt need a complete change to get people to play her.
The reason people arent playing her is cause they have their mind made up from S2, where the meta didnt suit her. You needed to build her outside the meta to be truly effective. Now S3, the meta suits her alot better, as does itemisation. Her popularity will rise, i can almost garuntee it.

There are plenty of champions that dont get played much. Trundle for one dsnt get played much, but hes a really cool champion and very well balanced.

In the end, to do with Kat, she was played plenty before the re-work, and played alot more now. The problem is, now she isnt the same Kat, shes a new champion in almost every aspect, cause her gameplay is very different. Thats not a re-work. Its not fixing anything, its throwing it out and remaking. Its not very fair to her current player base.


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DEagleEye

Senior Member

01-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HermitDruid View Post
All things considered though I love Sejuani and her kit. I'd be happy if you didn't change her at all. I just hope that when she comes out of the grinder she doesn't feel like a completely different champion.
See what i mean @Whyumai
you dont want to change a champion from what she is, just to make the playerbase larger. Its better to make the playerbase larger by making her better at what she is, or increasing visibility and understanding of what she is, not changing it.


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Whyumai

Senior Member

01-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEagleEye View Post
See what i mean @Whyumai
you dont want to change a champion from what she is, just to make the playerbase larger. Its better to make the playerbase larger by making her better at what she is, or increasing visibility and understanding of what she is, not changing it.
I'll reply to your other post in a bit. it's so long, so i'll take some time to think it through.

Otherwise, I wouldn't be aiming to make Sejuani "feel" different I do think you could make it so Sejuani had a greater synergy between her abilities so they "flowed" better into each other.

Right now I feel like she's three abilities with an ultimate tacked on the end. Her ultimate doesn't really flow well with her other abilities. Furthermore because her ultimate is so strong I feel like her other abilities have to be lackluster currently so that Sejuani doesn't become OP. Having said that I do feel Northern Winds is also quite good. However Arctic Assault and Perma Frost (interestingly enough Perma Frost is actually the really unique part of Sejuani's kit - so the fact that it feels so weak is particularly disappointing) are quite weak.

So yeah, I'd like Sejuani's ultimate to be reworked a little (still with the same idea: it's good for initiation) but so that her other abilities can be buffed a bit so that they feel good too.

I don't see it as changing the feel of the champion: I just think it's necessary to improve the enjoyment of the champion. Imagine if you take what you experience right now with Sejuani and turn it up to 11. That's what I think the goal should be .... what makes Sejuani enjoyable is (of course) open for debate. I will admit you have a right to be concerned as a Sejuani player (as would every Sejuani player, myself included). However, I do think there's room for improvement with Sejuani and if this rework is done right could make Sejuani a more enjoyable champion. However this won't end after this rework, if the rework doesn't make Sejuani more enjoyable the burden falls on the players to keep Riot working on Sejuani to make her better while keeping the feel relatively the same.

Meanwhile: I just played on a 5 vs 5 Normal Draft with my team's First Pick autolocking AD Annie. Our support Taric ending up having to mid after being told that Fiddlesticks was supporting since he was duo queueing with Annie. This was only explained after our Taric had locked Taric. Brand was their mid, and as you can imagine Taric died so hard. It was so awful. AD Annie sucks hard. GP failed against Kayle too. I went 1/1/9 with jungle Maokai, and upon reflection, I probably should have picked Sejuani. Because of the stronger ganks after level 6. Mind you, I was second pick, so I figured Annie was joking about being AD Annie and picked a reasonable ganking jungler. I still think we might have stomped it with Fiddlesticks top (kayle has no hard cc), Annie mid (would be ok against brand), and GP and Taric bot (against MF and Leona). GP would be our ADC in that case, which isn't ideal but it's better than AD Annie. Had to get that off my chest it was driving me nuts.

tl;dr: AD annie sucks. I think this rework of Sejuani could make her more enjoyable to play if done right.


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DEagleEye

Senior Member

01-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whyumai View Post
I'll reply to your other post in a bit. it's so long, so i'll take some time to think it through.

Otherwise, I wouldn't be aiming to make Sejuani "feel" different I do think you could make it so Sejuani had a greater synergy between her abilities so they "flowed" better into each other.

Right now I feel like she's three abilities with an ultimate tacked on the end. Her ultimate doesn't really flow well with her other abilities. Furthermore because her ultimate is so strong I feel like her other abilities have to be lackluster currently so that Sejuani doesn't become OP. Having said that I do feel Northern Winds is also quite good. However Arctic Assault and Perma Frost (interestingly enough Perma Frost is actually the really unique part of Sejuani's kit - so the fact that it feels so weak is particularly disappointing) are quite weak.

So yeah, I'd like Sejuani's ultimate to be reworked a little (still with the same idea: it's good for initiation) but so that her other abilities can be buffed a bit so that they feel good too.

I don't see it as changing the feel of the champion: I just think it's necessary to improve the enjoyment of the champion. Imagine if you take what you experience right now with Sejuani and turn it up to 11. That's what I think the goal should be .... what makes Sejuani enjoyable is (of course) open for debate. I will admit you have a right to be concerned as a Sejuani player (as would every Sejuani player, myself included). However, I do think there's room for improvement with Sejuani and if this rework is done right could make Sejuani a more enjoyable champion. However this won't end after this rework, if the rework doesn't make Sejuani more enjoyable the burden falls on the players to keep Riot working on Sejuani to make her better while keeping the feel relatively the same.

Meanwhile: I just played on a 5 vs 5 Normal Draft with my team's First Pick autolocking AD Annie. Our support Taric ending up having to mid after being told that Fiddlesticks was supporting since he was duo queueing with Annie. This was only explained after our Taric had locked Taric. Brand was their mid, and as you can imagine Taric died so hard. It was so awful. AD Annie sucks hard. GP failed against Kayle too. I went 1/1/9 with jungle Maokai, and upon reflection, I probably should have picked Sejuani. Because of the stronger ganks after level 6. Mind you, I was second pick, so I figured Annie was joking about being AD Annie and picked a reasonable ganking jungler. I still think we might have stomped it with Fiddlesticks top (kayle has no hard cc), Annie mid (would be ok against brand), and GP and Taric bot (against MF and Leona). GP would be our ADC in that case, which isn't ideal but it's better than AD Annie. Had to get that off my chest it was driving me nuts.

tl;dr: AD annie sucks. I think this rework of Sejuani could make her more enjoyable to play if done right.
See, i think they flow fine. You throw a massive ice-rock, stun em, follow in with Q, activate E to apply a 70% slow to 5 targets, and let E do the works. Shes kinda bursty like that, all in.

Also, i dont feel like her abilities are lackluster at all. Q is only lackluster cause of its high CD. If its CD fit what it did better, that is, a small CC charge, then its fine. Otherwise, W does ALOT of damage, and a 70% slow is never lackluster, especially when you can apply it to all the enemy champs at the same time. For comparison, Nasus only hits 1 target. And Nunu needs to ult to get this effect.

I find Sejuani very enjoyable, but thats beside the point right now. Sejuani is a character, she has been created, with a certain bunch of skills. Some of these are unique, some of these are not, but in the end, these are what make her sejuani.
Changes to make her more enjoyable, yet keep her, they are fine. Changes that fundamently change her, and then its not making her more enjoyable. its creating a new character. For example, 2 identical people, with the only difference being 1 is left side of politics, one is right side. Thats a big difference, and changing one to the other, is getting rid of the old one.
Same with Sejuani, you get rid of the things that make her Sejuani, and you dont have Sejuani. Your not longer making a more enjoyable Sejuani. What your making is a different Sejuani. Might be more enjoyable, but, it isnt Sejuani.

Lol. First of all, Taric can beat Brand mid. Full ap taric is strong, dont doubt it. But no, it isnt ideal.
Otherwise, bad luck man. Everything in this game is bad luck. Yesterday, i was 10 Wins more than losses in ranked, at 1215 Elo, an Elo ive kept steady since the season started.
9 losses later, im at 1098 elo....
I mean, seriously, the matchmater, continously, matches me with bad players who keept dragging me lower and lower with their bickering, and crying, and their antics like AD Yi's mid, or Support Malphites who use their ult to escape in a teamfight rather than to knck their team up.
Its really really disturbing. The matchmaker, is meant to stop losing and winning streaks. Thats its job. after placement (and i am way past placement matches) it defines your Elo, and then after large winning streaks, give you harder opponents, so that you lose. After large losing streaks, it gives you easier opponents, so you win. If you conitnue to win or lose, it then re-adjusts you true elo, realising it isnt accurate.
WHY then do i get massive lose streaks, but only small win streaks, i have no idea.
Thats off-topic, but hey, im just rambling, Ranked sucks so hard, but i cbf playing anything else except ARAM