Suggestion to lore writers: You're doing a TERRIBLE job at the "shades of gray" thing

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Birdy51

Senior Member

01-18-2013

Speculation is a good thing though. It makes you think.

Taking what we do know and trying to make it make sense is probably why I keep coming back to this forum. It's fun to debate the intracacies of the Lore. That's why I tend to go speculation crazy. You begin realize things that aren't necessarially given out right away.

All of this doesn't help my studies any though. I'll have you know it took me over an hour to finish my arguement because I flipped the switch onto rant mode. I hope you're happy!


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xSkywardBreakerx

Senior Member

03-19-2013

Break it down by ideals and morals for each Nation.
Demacia, Noxus, Ionia, Piltover, Zaun.


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OriginalA

Senior Member

03-19-2013

Demacia holds law and order as their utmost ideal.
They are willing to use disproportional retribution, indoctrination, and brute force to further this goal as well as maintain it.

Noxus holds individual merit and power above all else.
The current leadership will literally stop at nothing to further this end; The End Justifies the Means. (side note: earlier someone said that they thought that no current playable noxian champion would support the use of melters on the battlefield; they are wrong. Darius is in full support of using Zaun Melters as they were used in the Ionian conflict; they were extremely effective for very little sacrifice and that is all he cares about).
Noxus does have a fracture though. Due to its meritocracy nature, there are those that feel it has been taken in the wrong direction and there always remains the possibility for it to change and head off in another direction. With the death of Darkwill, and Swain's lack of any supposed method of life extension, it is only a matter of time before Noxus's Means changes.

Ionia holds balance and peace above all. Good and Evil, Light and Dark, all must exist in balance and harmony.
To this end they have isolated that which is "dark" or "evil" or "corrupting" and have prevented its spread, but likewise have they declined to destroy it as a Demacian would have. They preserve these dark and evil things. They will spend a lifetime learning self control and discipline. They will preserve peace, but not by force (unless the harmony has shifted out of balance).

Interesting note on the Ionians. They are peaceful, self controlled and disciplined. They keep evil things from becoming a danger. .... But name me one time that they were altruistic. The only example I can think of is Soraka, and she just as quickly called down vengeful wrath on the same person she was being kind to.

Zaun holds scientific advancement above all else.
They do not consider the negative side effects of their experiments. Results are what matter. The origin of resources (mineral, personnel, funds, test subjects, ect) is not a concern. The results are what matter. There is a bit ego complex by releasing a scientific breakthrough. As a bonus, Zaunites are equalists in the truest sense. All sentient beings are equal to them: robot, human, yordle, cyborg, blob, werewolf, ect... all the same legal rights; even Twitch, a sewer rat that gained sentience, is given equal status and even political backing for his scientific endeavors. Artificial Evolution is the name of Zaun's game. Transhumanism, sentient robots, accelerated evolution, artificial biological lifeforms. Zaun is in the business of building and redefining what it means to be a Sentient Being! Zaun builds a better you! And if they don't know how... well... they will spar no expense researching into that.

Piltover seems to hold pure tech advancement as their main deal.
They want clean energy. They want to push technology to its limits while not losing themselves or their world to it. Tech is a great tool, but it is only that. They want the shiniest tech toys and they are willing to push tech to the limit. They seem to have a crime problem though.

I just seem to think that it is telling that the Piltover Champions are Jayce (a hero that punishes crime with high tech toys), Caitlyn (a cop with a high tech rifle), Vi (a rugged cop with high tech boxing gloves), Janna (from Zaun, and she promotes clean energy), Heimmerdinger and Corki (science leaders, the former wants to save the world with SCIENCE and the latter is also a military officer) and Ziggs (brilliant scientist... also a hero). So you have every hero (minus Janna) that has major heroic tendencies. Of them, the locals are the ones concerned about local crime. .... Oh, right, Ezreal... He's an odd ball, but even he likes he techno-magical toy that's on his hand. They all love their tech.

Freljord!
Is probably the sanest of them all. They just want to survive, in peace. Honestly, Sejuani is the only real obstical for them. And even she wants the same thing as what Ashe does: a unified and thriving Freljord.... she just wants it to be her leading instead of Ashe. If Ashe stepped down as Queen and installed Sejuani as Queen, then Freljord would be completely united overnight without any qualms by anyone... within the country. ... And Sejuani would probably screw that up someone by picking a fight with another nation, maybe. ... I gotta give mad props to Ashe though; she did a great job creating a nation.


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AbiwonKenabi

Senior Member

03-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LastTestament View Post
was I the only one expecting this post to be a comment on the incorrect use of Gorean themes in lol fan fiction?
No....no you weren't


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Mdhe

Senior Member

03-20-2013

@OriginalA

That's all well and good in theory, but look at the champions that come out of each nation in practice. Noxus has Swain, Darius, Draven, and LeBlanc (all of whom I would say fall under "Clearly Evil") in one corner; Katarina, Talon, and Casseopeia are in another (all of whom are at best "Probably Evil.") Riven, of course, portrays everything good about the Noxian vision; she stands for individual strength and dignity, wishing only for a world where determination is rewarded... and she left Noxus. Because it didn't represent her world-view.

Meanwhile Demacia could be accused of forcing equality to the point where individual merit is a complete non-issue... except we never see that. There are no disgruntled Demacian deserters whose strength or intelligence was held back by the system. Instead we have Garen, a tireless paragon of virtue and justice; Lux, a military and magical genius; Jarvan IV, an entirely worthy Royal who leads by example... the list goes on. Demacia and Noxus are pretty clearly White and Black on the moral greyscale.

Now, Zaun and Piltover are theoretically shades-of-grey-er, but the problem is that whenever a champion arises from Zaun who isn't completely insane, they leave Zaun. See: Blitzcrank, Janna, Zac.The only ones who stay to represent Zaun are completely reprehensible; Mundo, Singed, Warwick, etc. Victor might be a point well made, but even the very charitable have to admit he's somewhat... unbalanced. And who does Piltover get? Lady Batman, Punchgirl, and Captain Hammer. Not exactly a balanced portrayal.

And the Shadow Isles are clearly evil. But Ionia and Freljord I'll grant you.


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Melancholy Exile

Senior Member

03-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mdhe View Post
Meanwhile Demacia could be accused of forcing equality to the point where individual merit is a complete non-issue... except we never see that. There are no disgruntled Demacian deserters whose strength or intelligence was held back by the system. Instead we have Garen, a tireless paragon of virtue and justice; Lux, a military and magical genius; Jarvan IV, an entirely worthy Royal who leads by example... the list goes on. Demacia and Noxus are pretty clearly White and Black on the moral greyscale.
The problem with this argument, as much sense as it makes, is that you're asking why the police state hasn't let any counter-culture represent them.

I feel as though Demacia has the fundamental flaw in its characterisation that, for all its evils, positive PR has made it the go-to good guy and lampshading its flaws undermines the view of them held by those who take minimal interest in the lore. Quinn could've offered us a view of the problems faced by the lower classes, but instead she was used to show an evolving Demacia where even their old biases against promotion through merit are no longer so rigid. Shades of grey may still emerge through the background but it suits Riot better to keep Demacians as the shining paragons of 'justice' than to do something to drag their name through the mud.

How do you make an outcast Demacian, who hammers home the flaws of their city-state, while keeping the heroic qualities of other Demacian characters intact?


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Mdhe

Senior Member

03-20-2013

Fair point about the police state, though The Demacian Deserter could be a state-independent champion in the vein of Riven or Rumble.

I basically see the champion taking one of two routes; either we have a disgruntled individual that feels the Demacian system limits their individual potential in some fashion, or we have an individual who has somehow run afoul of Demacia's strict ethical code.

The second variation could be played positively by approaching it somewhat like this: perhaps the character was in a position of military command, and when presented with an unfavourable battle in which they would lose many lives, they opted to retreat instead of sacrificing their troops. This would earn him/her the ire of their superiors, since the Demacian standard demands that their troops never retreat or surrender, which The Deserter would argue (correctly, in my opinion) is madness. He/she would then either desert on his/her own, or be expelled from the nation.

This way we have a champion who doesn't tarnish the Courage and Honour ideals of the other Demacian champions, but acknowledges that it's kind of a bollocks way to run an entire country.


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Melancholy Exile

Senior Member

03-20-2013

Couldn't you argue that both of those instances run the risk of people completely missing the point and either interpreting them as either being overtly selfish or a craven coward who couldn't face the expectations all of their fellow Demacians live up to?

Demacia has an innately more heroic fašade than Noxus and, as undeserved as it may be, has essentially become the city state whom most people would consider your traditional lawful good paragon of virtue and heroism. While Riven serves to reinforce Noxus' direction, and subvert the stereotype that all Noxians are evil, murderous psychopaths, a Demacian who stood apart from her people would also stand to reinforce characteristics many people think of as positive in a fantasy setting. There's certainly a darker side to the Demacian stance on retreat and surrender, but it's all too easy to paint one who falls short of that standard as being in the wrong when so many other 'good' characters live up to it.

Riven still loves the core Noxian ideals and thus gives the impression that the place isn't all bad at heart. It certainly helps that, for all they have in common, she's really quite different from most of the Noxians we're familiar with. She makes her people look worse for both showing that there clearly is another path they could walk and making their rejection of such ideas all too clear. How do you make a Demacian who has a more human stance on certain tenets of the their creed, as well as sharing in their positive attitudes and views, without making all their peers look worse for supporting the current regime and rejecting what they believe in? Riven reinforces who Noxus and subverts it at the same time, while a 'kinder' Demacian just makes her people look awful.

Alternatively: How do you make a more brutal and selfish Demacian without making the city look better for disowning them?


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Renegade Paladin

Senior Member

03-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanias1 View Post
Am I the only one to realize that all the characteristics for Noxus that were given hold true for Ancient Rome too? One of the most famous and "civilized" nations regarded in history?
No, they actually don't. For starters, the Roman Empire didn't go about building the Forum on top of freaking Skull Rock and cackling maniacally about how evil they were and BLOOD FOR ROME and all that.


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Melancholy Exile

Senior Member

03-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Clean Garen View Post
For starters, the Roman Empire didn't go about building the Forum on top of freaking Skull Rock
Maybe they just couldn't find any?