Suggestion to lore writers: You're doing a TERRIBLE job at the "shades of gray" thing

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Cerubois

Senior Member

01-02-2013

I agree that Syndra is in the wrong entirely in her story. She was a problem child from the beginning, and made no attempt to understand why she was wrong.

Her village elders (her lore makes no reference to the leaders of Ionia in her childhood, so we can only assume it was a local decision, and not Ionia's on a whole) went out on a limb and tried a tested-and-true method of training. Isolate the student and give them focused attention. Limiting her powers was the only way to make sure she listened to the old mage, otherwise she probably would have ignored him and been reckless again despite his efforts.
But then it doesn't work. Syndra doesn't grow up, she doesn't learn the way they want her to. When she finds out the true reason she's there, she goes ape**** and reckless all over again. Syndra then decides that the best way to get revenge for this "betrayal" is to kill everyone, including the leaders of Ionia that may have had nothing to do with it in the first place.
But wait!
Instead of doing that, she joins the League, submitting herself to being controlled and limited again.
...Huh?

I wouldn't quite say Syndra is evil. She's just ****ing stupid.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xulsigae

Senior Member

01-02-2013

It seems difficult to make someone evil while retaining the ability to take them seriously. Captain Planet villains are a prime example of just being evil for evil's sake.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

fortide

Senior Member

01-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerubois View Post
I agree that Syndra is in the wrong entirely in her story. She was a problem child from the beginning, and made no attempt to understand why she was wrong.

Her village elders (her lore makes no reference to the leaders of Ionia in her childhood, so we can only assume it was a local decision, and not Ionia's on a whole) went out on a limb and tried a tested-and-true method of training. Isolate the student and give them focused attention. Limiting her powers was the only way to make sure she listened to the old mage, otherwise she probably would have ignored him and been reckless again despite his efforts.
But then it doesn't work. Syndra doesn't grow up, she doesn't learn the way they want her to. When she finds out the true reason she's there, she goes ape**** and reckless all over again. Syndra then decides that the best way to get revenge for this "betrayal" is to kill everyone, including the leaders of Ionia that may have had nothing to do with it in the first place.
But wait!
Instead of doing that, she joins the League, submitting herself to being controlled and limited again.
...Huh?

I wouldn't quite say Syndra is evil. She's just ****ing stupid.
I remember a red suggesting that the reason why she joined was so she could destroy the Ionian leaders by using political influence (like if there was ever another Ionia vs Noxus match). I agree with you that Syndra's quite reckless though.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Dreamspitter

Recruiter

01-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsaalyo View Post
The Demacia vs. Noxus issue couldn't be any less of a shades of gray matter. It's cliched and comic booky in the righteousness of one side and the sheer evil of the other. Heck, the entire thing can best be summarized by two quotes:

Garen: Fear not, I'm coming!
Katarina: BLOOD FOR NOXUS.

...yeah. 'Nuff said.
"I bear the armor of contempt, shield of disgust, and the wield the sword of zealous hatred. The Emperor Protects."

vs

"BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD. Skulls for the skull throne. You seek death and I would gladly rend and tear your soul. I would rip your flesh screaming from your bones and garland this body with your entrails, but your death is to be far worse than even one such as I could devise. Your skull will be honored with a place in one of the bone mountains within sight of the Blood God!"

The difference with 40K and Empire of Mankind vs Chaos....is that the Empire genuinely sucks (the setting invented Grimdark). They have no problem with carrying out Exterminatus on Imperial worlds that they cant forcibly reclaim either from the enemy or rebels, and are ruled by ultra zealots that are an analog of the Inquisition. They are also incredibly xenophobic, and humanist, turning away the space elves (AKA Eldar) and the Tau (whose battlecry is "For the greater good!")


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Tsaalyo

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Recruiter

01-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamspitter View Post
"I bear the armor of contempt, shield of disgust, and the wield the sword of zealous hatred. The Emperor Protects."

vs

"BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD. Skulls for the skull throne. You seek death and I would gladly rend and tear your soul. I would rip your flesh screaming from your bones and garland this body with your entrails, but your death is to be far worse than even one such as I could devise. Your skull will be honored with a place in one of the bone mountains within sight of the Blood God!"

The difference with 40K and Empire of Mankind vs Chaos....is that the Empire genuinely sucks (the setting invented Grimdark). They have no problem with carrying out Exterminatus on Imperial worlds that they cant forcibly reclaim either from the enemy or rebels, and are ruled by ultra zealots that are an analog of the Inquisition. They are also incredibly xenophobic, and humanist, turning away the space elves (AKA Eldar) and the Tau (whose battlecry is "For the greater good!")
I'm not sure what point you're making here. Demacia is nothing like the Empire of Mankind. If they were closer to that, that'd be something, that'd be a shade of gray. What I want is for new lore to come up of reports that rogue Demacian soldiers violated a peaceful Noxian village. I want new lore to come up of reports of rumbling in Noxus where civilians and high ranking members of the military are disgusted by what Singed did and pay sympathies for the people of Ionia, who they had no idea they were indirectly wronging that much. Even 40k doesn't do shades of gray, it just portrays the humans as just as bad.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xulsigae

Senior Member

01-17-2013

With WH40K, it's supposed to be pretty much grim no matter which faction you choose. I'm for the Tau myself, who are 'nice' but will resort to brainwashing and conquest if they don't get their way.
In League, there aren't as many factions and yet the differences (to me) are more pronounced. Demacia may be a monarchy, but that in itself isn't automatically bad nor does it mean that you can't advance through merit (see Xin and Shyvana). I don't see much in the way of advancing through merit in Noxia, unless 'Kill your way up the ladder' is merit. A culture that values violence isn't so 'grey' to me, as just dark.
It's nowhere near as balanced as Horde versus Alliance yet.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Birdy51

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Well... Let's be honest, it's difficult for even die-hard Noxian lovers have always found it a bit hard defending Noxus. It's hard to fight against the fact that Noxus did participate in a rather imperialistic crusade against nearly everyone, but Zaun and Bildgewater. Then there is the minotaur incident. The barbarian pacification campaigns. The invasion and subsequent occupation of Ionia.

Domestically, you have a culture that condones murder as politics, enjoys death spectacles, has a nasty case xenophobia against yordles and Annie's people, a capital that contains some of the most dangerous slums on Runeterra, and actively practices necromancy. Not to mention, the leader for the last hundred years was a man who's last name was Darkwill. That's a name you run away from. This was all even before the lore slowdown. It's hard to find much "grey" with Noxus.

That said, I also want to say that we still don't know how Swain will shape Noxus. He and his partner in crime LeBlanc are wild cards to say the least. We've been given very little information on how things were when the Black Rose was in charge. For we know, things might have been significantly less militaristic, perhaps even harmonious to an extent. Darkwill obviously ruffled a few feathers in his rise to power, and he spent a very long time shaping Noxus into the country it is today. There's no doubt it's currently bent towards evil, but that might change in the future. I hope it does change a bit, as it would be interesting to see what might happen if Darkwill Loyalists clash with Swain's new leadership.

Then there is also Darius in the picture... For as much as people hate him, and as much as I griped on him early on, Darius is probably Noxus' only real hope for stability. He's described as a fighter of corruption inside the city, so perhaps the notorious slums of Noxus might receive some heavy handed love. Being a product of such a hell-hole, I doubt Darius would adverse to seeing the conditions of the poor improved. With this in mind, Noxus may start to grow a few gray hairs.


Also, because this seems to be a hot topic... I agree with Lithillya's sentiments on Syndra. As evil as she is made out to be, her elders can share a bit of the blame. They were truly callous about their actions. When it was discovered that Syndra's potential far exceeded anything they had yet seen, they were afraid. As she began to flex her magical muscles, they were terrified, perhaps rightly. Fear, though natural, leads to mistakes however. Rather than show her that she must learn to exercise restraint on her own and encourage her to learn how to control her powers, they feared for their lives, and so shipped her off into isolation.

Now, in a strange way, I think Syndra was happy about this. On her end, think of the consequences of her childhood. As she grew older, Syndra quickly realized that she had a natural gift for magic. It is not likely she completely understood her power, but Syndra knew full well of her potential, even at an early age. Because of this, her powers grew exponentially.

Sadly however, this power did nothing to help her socially. Normal citizens were likely very afraid of just what this little girl could do. I find it very likely that she was socially ostracized for her talents. There was something unatural, unbalanced about this girl. As we know quite well, Ionians prefer their balance over anything. This girl did not belong here. As such, I have a feeling that she was treated very much like a demon.

These sentiments undoubtably affected Syndra greatly. Out of spite perhaps, she grew stronger still. If they refuse to accept her for how she is, so be it. Afterall, she has a talent that none of them could ever hope to match. One day they recognized that fact.

After an unknown incident, the elders of the village finally deemed that Syndra was a danger to their little society. They took Syndra away one day, to a remote temple. Her powers were deemed beyond the boundries of what they understood, so they turned to the old mage of the temple.

Now, although the old mage helped Syndra, he is undoubtably a gray character. Rather than allow Syndra to exercise her full strength, he limited her power very early on. No doubt, that if given time, Syndra's power would have far out matched his. But is this a bad thing? Must the master always be stronger than the student? Without permission from Syndra, he sapped her strength.

Yet, surely there was a better option. Knowing that her power was beyond his, he could have just as easily passed her onto a teacher that was better than he was. Obstinately however, the old mage simply weakens her to keep her powers in check. This proved to be folly.

When Syndra finally reached the boundaries of her power, she was left frustrated. Day after day, her training proves nothing. The power that she had felt deep inside her since childhood was gone. Having shaping her very identiy around her powers, this had to be a truly nasty shock. Syndra knew that her potential was greater than this, yet every effort was fruitless. At last, the old mage finally told her the truth.

I can hardly blame her for being extremely pissed that her powers were limited. The analogy was brought up that a child would use a training sword if he would want to be a warrior when he grows hold. This holds true for a child with an idle toy. But consider this.

What if you are, say, a good runner. It is your life, it is how you define yourself. You can run faster, harder, and stronger than almost anyone. But you lack the running technique. Your stride is sloppy and you run into people. Irritated, your parents hire a personal trainer to avoid getting sued by the people you knock down. You learn the techniques of running, but you suddenly find yourself more sluggish than usual. The personal trainer is the culprit! Given that running is your life, you want answers. The personal trainer responds that he limited your athletic abilities because you were too quick to keep up. Furthermore, he will keep limiting you until you master your running techniques or he'll make it so you can never run again, lest you hurt someone. Your refusal of this unorthadox personal trainer is met with a baseball bat to the legs. They shatter, and your running career is over.

This is Syndra's situation. Imagine that her teacher did take her powers away. What then? Her entire life has been based upon her magic. Second, she trusted this man. He was her mentor. The elders had always hated her, but this man had gained her trust. The fact that she has been betrayed from the very beginning of her studies is undoubtably a shock. This was no school. This was a prison. To blame her for wanting to leave it is unrealistic.

But no, the old mage can't do that. Surely this young woman is a danger to society, and has to be kept under lock and key! What would happen if she were to leave the temple? Rampages, death! No, the only logical option is to break her metaphorical legs and nullify the only reason for existence so far in her life.

Rather than give him the chance to do so, Syndra flies into a rage. She kills the old mage in an act of passion. All of her life, fear and tradtion has limited her powers. If she was born in any other country but Ionia, her gift might have been accepted. But no, instead of fostering a gift they treated her as if she was possessed by a demon. A curse, a vile pox to the joys of balance. Send her away, seal her off until she's not so threatening! Who could blame her for not wanting to return to this.

Although the Ionian leadership was never mentioned, it is doubtful that they knew nothing of this. A girl of tremendous skill and power at her age isn't a quiet matter. However, they were content to let it happen. Now when that she's older and has ripped a temple from the ground, one can consider it logical that the Ionian leadership is not happy. Syndra is an enemy of the state. Like her dead master, Irelia and Karma are both souls who wish to see her gone. She is a danger to the state. Unstable and unbalanced.

Perhaps this why she joined the League. In order to protect her own powers, she fights as a champion. Her influence that she accrues keeps her from being arrested. She is afterall, a champion and is therefore allowed certain privileges. Though they limit her on the Fields of Justice, they do nothing to stop her outside the Fields.

Now, who's at fault here? There were many times that Syndra could have become a far more benevolent character, but time and time again she was left at odds with those above due to their actions. At the beginning of her story, the only thing she did wrong was practice "recklessly" and for having too much innate ablity. Then, Syndra was left at her wit's end with her mentor. It was either push or be pushed. If Syndra hadn't of pushed back, she would have never have become a champion. Likely after her outburst that day, I would wager that the old man would have completely nullified her powers for good.

Balance in all things.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xulsigae

Senior Member

01-17-2013

There are other champs who had 'innate powers' thrust on them but reacted in a far better manner. To me, Syndra had too much power for her own good too soon. Not her fault, but how you react to such power is. If you could run so fast but kept knocking people down, perhaps slowing you down so you could learn proper control techniques would be best. Rather than 'full throttle' all the time, which is dangerous to you as well as others around you, learning to temper your powers and know when to use them would make more sense to me.
And it's very possible they might stop her outside of the fields. They did so with Malzahar and Kassadin when they were brawling. They'd probably take a very poor view of someone trying to kill a group of leaders. Very bad for keeping peace.
In the end, I think Syndra 'shot herself in the foot' by killing her mentor. Power with control is greater than chaotic power generally, and no one in their right mind is going to try and teach her anything now.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Birdy51

Senior Member

01-18-2013

This is true. I honestly can't disagree with some of your arguement, however, it misses an important point.

Remember that Syndra was in the middle of nowhere with this old mage. Isolation is sometimes a blessing. In a town, she can't afford to go full throttle because there are people about. Here, the only person she might injure is the old man.

Seeing however that he should have had a basic understanding about her powers, he could have just as easily told her to spend an hour a day exercising her powers in the countryside and allowing Syndra to burn her mana naturally. In isolation, she is a threat to no one. Through flexing her magical muscles, she becomes tired. Syndra's strong, but no man or woman alive can run a marathon with a sprint. Once drained of the full resources of her magic, the old mage could teach her.

He doesn't do this however. Like the personal trainer, he simply drugs his student from the beginning when a bit of creative thinking would have been far more effective. Then, when confronted with his seedy teaching habits, he threatens to take away her identity. Her life was built upon her magic. The fact that he would wantonly destroy that element of her life is quite black indeed. You can hardly blame her for reacting poorly.

The old mage could have spared himself a lot of pain if he had simply accepted that Syndra was going to have to be taught differently.

Now, onto the League! Remember that when Kassadin and Malzahar did fight, there was a third combatant. Karthus. Karthus had already fallen. By the time they got there, somebody ended up killing him.

Another conflict. Swain and Jarvan IV. They had a healthy amount of time together before they were seperated. If Jarvan IV wasn't on his toes during his judgement, he could have been overwhelmed by Swain. Had he been any normal man, he could have died.

Then there's Nocturne, who managed to kill several summoners before being stopped.

If this says anything, it's that the League is not necessarially omnipotent. Syndra is likely to have noted this and is obviously willing to take her chances. It's that, or deal with the Ionian leadership on her own. Despite her great power, I don't think she could take on their powers alone. It would not be far fetched to suggest that the Kinkou consider her a theat as well. Killing her master was indeed a big shot to the foot.

However, upon realizing that her master had deceived her for the last few years of her life is bound to make her a bit irrational. Threatening to take them away completely was the straw that broke the camels back.

Also, here's a question to stew on :P. Why would she want another teacher? Given her background, what would drive her into wanting to have another person teach her?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xulsigae

Senior Member

01-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdy51 View Post
This is true. I honestly can't disagree with some of your arguement, however, it misses an important point.

Remember that Syndra was in the middle of nowhere with this old mage. Isolation is sometimes a blessing. In a town, she can't afford to go full throttle because there are people about. Here, the only person she might injure is the old man.

Seeing however that he should have had a basic understanding about her powers, he could have just as easily told her to spend an hour a day exercising her powers in the countryside and allowing Syndra to burn her mana naturally. In isolation, she is a threat to no one. Through flexing her magical muscles, she becomes tired. Syndra's strong, but no man or woman alive can run a marathon with a sprint. Once drained of the full resources of her magic, the old mage could teach her.

He doesn't do this however. Like the personal trainer, he simply drugs his student from the beginning when a bit of creative thinking would have been far more effective. Then, when confronted with his seedy teaching habits, he threatens to take away her identity. Her life was built upon her magic. The fact that he would wantonly destroy that element of her life is quite black indeed. You can hardly blame her for reacting poorly.

The old mage could have spared himself a lot of pain if he had simply accepted that Syndra was going to have to be taught differently.

Now, onto the League! Remember that when Kassadin and Malzahar did fight, there was a third combatant. Karthus. Karthus had already fallen. By the time they got there, somebody ended up killing him.

Another conflict. Swain and Jarvan IV. They had a healthy amount of time together before they were seperated. If Jarvan IV wasn't on his toes during his judgement, he could have been overwhelmed by Swain. Had he been any normal man, he could have died.

Then there's Nocturne, who managed to kill several summoners before being stopped.

If this says anything, it's that the League is not necessarially omnipotent. Syndra is likely to have noted this and is obviously willing to take her chances. It's that, or deal with the Ionian leadership on her own. Despite her great power, I don't think she could take on their powers alone. It would not be far fetched to suggest that the Kinkou consider her a theat as well. Killing her master was indeed a big shot to the foot.

However, upon realizing that her master had deceived her for the last few years of her life is bound to make her a bit irrational. Threatening to take them away completely was the straw that broke the camels back.

Also, here's a question to stew on :P. Why would she want another teacher? Given her background, what would drive her into wanting to have another person teach her?
I have no idea how mana would actually work in 'real life.' So I don't know if letting her 'burn it off' would do anything. Nor do I know what type of training he tried to give her. Can't speak to if his training was so narrow minded.
Karthus is already dead, and that was before his lore remake.
There are no 'normal' people in the League.
Syndra might get a few of the leaders, but the League would take a very dim view of it. And if she kills them, what then? What's her purpose?
She may have all this power, but she may not know how to use it to it's full effect. Having a teacher to help would boost her effective power greatly. I don't think she would take one though, seeing as how she treated the last one. But if she ever got over her hubris and thought 'Hey, I could learn so much more and get so much more power if I asked someone who's been around magic far longer than me...' she may.
Speculation though. Can't really argue for or against something that isn't canon.