How can I stay equally leveled in the jungle?

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Porterfield

Member

12-15-2012

Riot has really made the S3 jungle a sort of pseudo-lane in which the gold/exp gained is on par with the gold/exp gained in lane. The problem with the S2 jungle was that the gold/exp was just not enough to compete with in-lane champions. Thus, junglers were heavily reliant on early ganks/assists. Thus, junglers who have good early gank potential (leesin) or junglers with fast clear speeds (shyvana) were preferred. With the changes in S3, we now see junglers having a choice between early ganking, and staying in the jungle to amass some gold/exp before ganking. The changes makes the jungle strategy much more involved in the game in general. Counterjungling at the right time can really ruin someones jungle advantage.


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Les Nomerables

Game Designer

12-15-2012
3 of 3 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by aznmastah54 View Post
Riot has really made the S3 jungle a sort of pseudo-lane in which the gold/exp gained is on par with the gold/exp gained in lane. The problem with the S2 jungle was that the gold/exp was just not enough to compete with in-lane champions. Thus, junglers were heavily reliant on early ganks/assists. Thus, junglers who have good early gank potential (leesin) or junglers with fast clear speeds (shyvana) were preferred. With the changes in S3, we now see junglers having a choice between early ganking, and staying in the jungle to amass some gold/exp before ganking. The changes makes the jungle strategy much more involved in the game in general. Counterjungling at the right time can really ruin someones jungle advantage.
I haven't done the math with S3 jungle, but when I was doing calculations for the TT jungle based on the old SR jungle, I found that it was tuned such that its maximum gold income (assuming you killed each camp as soon as it spawned) was exactly equal to your gold income if you got a perfect creep score each minion wave in lane.

I don't remember if this was pre-or-post banking changes though.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

12-15-2012

You should probably make a note that killing each camp the instant it spawns is impossible, while managing a perfect creep score is merely improbable.


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Kchaosrei

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Senior Member

12-15-2012

I find in the jungle that it is almost impossible to keep lvled with the bot lane unless i eat the other jungler. I am falling into a trap where i become a carry or just have no effect on the game anymore.

Everytime i see a tank jungle i laugh. And then i proceed to to gank him at his red and kill him. This new jungle is to rough on the tank jungle. I am mostly catching the jungle tanks at 1/4 hp at the major buffs. Then i proceed to just feast on them all game. If i do my job they end up getting 4s or more behind by the 15 minute mark compared to lanes at that point.

New jungle is to rough for non 5 man premades


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xkawazux

Senior Member

12-15-2012

It just feels really really hard to carry as a jungler.

I feel I need to completely trounce the enemy team, have a g/5 item, while getting all objectives, and keeping my jungle clear constantly in order to get ahead in gold. Bruisers and tanks are fine, because they don't need much gold to contribute, but it's really really hard to actually carry.

Just did the math using excel and the gold values on the LOL wiki.(they could be wrong)

In the first 17 minutes of the game, the jungler can get 3340 gold if you were somehow able to instantly clear every camp as soon as it spawned. ( i picked 17 minutes because the spawn timers made it convenient)

In the first 17 minutes of laning, a laner could potentially get about 4090 gold if they got every single last hit. Assuming you get 80% of the cs in lane, that's about 3275 gold in 17 minutes.

That sounds very close, but it's extremely unrealistic. First off, you don't clear everything instantly. The first couple clears of the jungle, you will get behind. After the first couple clears you can keep things cleared constantly without much hassle. Say that means you essentially missed one spawn of wraiths, golems and wolves over the first two clears while you built up your strength/bought something or whatever.

You are now down to 3175 gold, just through a realistic clear time. You also spent all your gold on things that don't effect champions at all. The laner probably went boots+pots or something similar, so you can be down by as much as 350 gold. If you are a bruiser that can build Wriggles or Spirit of the Ancient Golem (IE probably not a carry), you don't lose quite as much gold as this.

You are about 450 gold behind a mediocre laner if everything goes perfectly. This seems pretty reasonable as laning is a little scarier and unreliable, but this doesn't take everything into account. Mid will probably want blue past the first or second one, which is another 150 gold. A 150->300 gold change in income. It's not uncommon to see laners start farming your camps around the 11 minute mark, which could take about 30+% of your income. If you assume the game is mirrored, you can think of this as the enemy laner getting the gold.(both junglers will have CS taken) That causes a 700 gold difference!

So now the laners have 1300-1450 more gold than you. So if you want to carry, you need 4-5 kills while maintaining control of every objective, keeping every camp clear all the time, and never dying.

Pretty much explains why carry junglers are not great overall. The new jungle nerfed bruiser and tank jungle early games, but carry junglers aren't really viable either because you don't get a comparable amount of gold compared to laners.


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SniperSierra

Junior Member

12-15-2012

I find that the jungle is now a far more viable option, even into late game. Here's why.
I play Shyvana in the jungle. As Gixia said, starting with a machete and having someone leash red for you give you a great start. After clearing out pretty much my entire jungle except double golems(It's even better now with the smite buff), I recall and buy Madred's razors. After you get Madred's and upgrade it to Wriggle's, jungling difficulty drops drastically, and you can solo dragon and still leave with a decent-ish amount of health. Essentially, start with Machete and 5 pots, and rush a Wriggle's.


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ScarletDeviI

Senior Member

12-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
I haven't done the math with S3 jungle, but when I was doing calculations for the TT jungle based on the old SR jungle, I found that it was tuned such that its maximum gold income (assuming you killed each camp as soon as it spawned) was exactly equal to your gold income if you got a perfect creep score each minion wave in lane.

I don't remember if this was pre-or-post banking changes though.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...8#post32473738

I recently did the math on Exp\Gold assuming you clear the camps in summoners rift perfectly vs if you got every single CS in a lane.

"TL;DR -
Basic Jungle Camps (Wolf,Wraith, Golem)
Gold 146 + 2.72 \min
Exp 496 + 9.52 \min
Gold\Exp per minute average from Blue + Red (Assuming you get
them):
Gold 36 + 0.1348 \min
Exp 113 + 1 \min

Lane
Gold 230 + 2.166 \min
Exp 484 + 15.8 \min"

These are both per minute, Per wave is half of the shown lane Gold\Exp values.

As you can see, While getting perfect CS is harder then perfectly farming the jungle. The jungler will never be allowed to simply farm in a real game, or if they did the team would be force to 4 v 5 (Probably wouldnt end well)

This also explains why Junglers usually hit level 4 first, then slowly fall behind gold and exp wise (Unless they get fed to stupid levels)

This is also pre 35 minutes at which point siege creeps spawn more often and lane gold per minute goes up slightly.

The thing that has to be considered most : A jungler that simply farms is doing NOTHING for the team besides getting gold to scale.

A laner that simply farms is holding a lane, and preventing the tower from being taken. A necessary role regardless.


My 2cents,

Keep early game jungle the same, but dont try to pretend to buff the gold gain by 1.5xing the minimal gold per minute gains (Compared to the base gold values).

Make the monsters get extremely powerful late game and make them worth a large amount late game, Supporty\Tank junglers will naturally fall into their role later in the game, while very gold dependent junglers that build to clear will have the option to do so.

If you do this correctly, only the jungler and extremely farmed ADC's\High DPS bruisers (Udyr, Jax, Etc) that do not build to clear the jungle will be able to do so.


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