Black Cleaver nerf makes no sense...

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destromau5

Junior Member

12-14-2012

yea it is with someone that snowballs...and building multiple BCs snowballs you pretty hard


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TealNinje

Senior Member

12-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by destromau5 View Post
yea it is with someone that snowballs...and building multiple BCs snowballs you pretty hard
So basically, when the player skill is harshly in one player's favor, then they snowball?


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Lightningfst

Senior Member

12-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by destromau5 View Post
with the changes to armor and all the masteries, it is far easier to ignore more armor than tanks can build. if you build 150 armor, 30% is 45, so take it down to 105, with another 3% extra you get from masteries (because tanks get 5% and AD get 8%, and the flat armor/flat ArP masteries cancel each other out), drop it down to 100.5, then a Last Whisper which is another 35%, drop it down to 48, 3 black cleavers, and you have them down to 3 armor, so yes, basically true damage to a tank after 3 BCs,(and 150 armor is about normal for mid game)
^This... is an example of being bad at math.

Let's assume 150 armor.
Armor shred (at 30%) reduces armor to 105.
Then % from personal apply. LW + Masteries = 40% (multiplicatively) Armor is now at 58.
Apply flat penetration of 3 black cleavers.= 45 which brings the total armor to 13.

With the new changes and same assumptions:
Armor shred (at 25%) reduces armor to 112.5.
Then % from personal apply. LW + Masteries = 40% (multiplicatively) Armor is now at 67.5
Apply 1 Black Cleaver since ArP is unique.
10 ArP now reduces armor to 57.5 - which is slightly over 60% reduction in armor value.


TBH though, if your tank only has 150 armor and the opponent has BC and LW, your tank is horribly underfarmed.

Now let's do this with a REAL tank - 250 armor. =D
Before:
Armor shred (at 30%) reduces armor to 175.
Then % from personal apply. LW + Masteries = 40% (multiplicatively) Armor is now at 105.
Apply flat penetration of 3 black cleavers.= 45 ArP which brings the total armor to 60. That is a big reduction, but not true damage.

With the new changes and same assumptions:
Armor shred (at 25%) reduces armor to 187.5
Then % from personal apply. LW + Masteries = 40% (multiplicatively) Armor is now at 112.5
Apply flat penetration of 1 black cleaver.= 10 which brings the total armor to 102.5.

Conclusion: Making the ArP unique makes stacking BC not really worthwhile. This is exactly what everyone wanted. On the flip side, reducing a tank's armor by 60% is pretty damn good and that is after the nerf.

TL;DR
Stop complaining about the nerfs - it doesn't kill the item's viability against tanks. It does however make tanks viable.


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Insanity601

Senior Member

12-14-2012

Bad tank? No buddy you just didn't play with someone stacking those things before they were nerfed. I used BC before season 3 patch and it was decent. I played one game and saw a huge change, so naturally I stacked em

IT was pure **** ******************************************

The nerf makes perfect sense as it still buffed BC pre season 3 but isn't making it as OP. That math above me explains it for the nerdier people like myself. Nice to see the actual math done. You can still rush BC and stack another to snowball hard but you will struggle transitioning into the late game. BC still viable. TALON is finally good enough for your everyday player, you know BC is still good :P


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PoolPartyPirate

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Junior Member

12-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustMyBassCannon View Post
Flat penetration ALWAYS applied after any form of Armor Shred, just fyi.
Umm, sorry to say, but that is completely WRONG, fool.
Riot specifically stated in the recent Patch Notes and in videos exactly how the armor pen works, that they changed it from being calculated before the shredding to after, to gain a bigger affect from stacking both instead of it hurting the build and being counterproductive.
Next time you are posting about something you have no personal knowledge of, try reading, or even watching a video if you're small mind has the attention span, and realize that your stupid input is not needed by this community.


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

12-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateRobb View Post
Umm, sorry to say, but that is completely WRONG, fool.
Riot specifically stated in the recent Patch Notes and in videos exactly how the armor pen works, that they changed it from being calculated before the shredding to after, to gain a bigger affect from stacking both instead of it hurting the build and being counterproductive.
Next time you are posting about something you have no personal knowledge of, try reading, or even watching a video if you're small mind has the attention span, and realize that your stupid input is not needed by this community.
I've played the game for 3 years.

The order has ALWAYS been Shred, then Penetration. The changes that Riot made was that FLAT PENETRATION is now applied after PERCENT PENETRATION, rather than the other way around.

That change buffed Last Whisper and Void Staff. However, Flat and % Shred has ALWAYS applied before any form of Penetration. So, Black Cleaver shredding % Armor would not have anything to do with the change in penetration order.

Fool


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Nea De Penserhir

Senior Member

12-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TealNinje View Post
What kind of awful tanks were you playing with?
30% shred on 300 armor (which is horribly excessive)
210 armor

210 - 8%
196ish armor

If you had a last whisper...

210 - 40%
126.

If you're running a standard ArP/AD page with 1 black cleaver previously

126 - 32

94 / 300 armor.

So you cut down the tanks effective physical defense against yourself by well over 66%. With two items. That leaves 3 items after boots to work with as you need.

Now if you were a champion who was ability based, AD based, with natural defense steroids, you could efficiently stack cleavers with little to no penalty. Those without natural steroids suffered a bit more but could generally burst down any target, really.

2 cleavers?

79 armor.
3? 64.
4? 49.

If a tank with 300 armor, thus budgeting heavily to armor and leaving themselves vulnerable to AP champions, still isn't getting much from the 300 armor other than "you're not true damaging me yet", that's a problem. That's a significant problem.

You can't counter Black Cleaver stacking with just health. Why?

Because there are four other champions on the enemy team that you need to deal with, and be able to effectively mitigate. If you attempt to counter by pure armor, you're not really doing anything about it and are just opening yourself up to the AP carry. Build health? Their AD carry will shred.

Since the point of a tank is to efficiently mitigate damage that should be targeting their team instead, Black Cleaver stacking completely removed this from the dedicated tanks. Black Cleaver stacking literally made it so you could attack whoever you wanted, whoever was in range, and you were not suitably punished for it. After all, if you can hit tanks for near true damage, the Carries aren't going to be in a good boat at all.

So rather than nerf the item as a whole into the ground (A singular Black Cleaver was still stupidly strong, thus the actual nerfs in addition), they simply hit the most abusive part about it - The armor penetration.

Whether that's enough or not, we'll see. It'll still be strong on many champions, it just won't absurdly break them like it has.


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TealNinje

Senior Member

12-15-2012

ROmen, FH, Bulwark, Spirit Visage, and probably Warmog's.

Upwards of 260 armor, 4k+ health, 30% CDR, and enough MR to survive pretty much any mage.


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Nea De Penserhir

Senior Member

12-15-2012

Okay, now think about that build. It's entirely dedicated to defense, and protection if your tank has the abilities to do that.

It's a solid build. It takes a little thought and brings what you need.

I stack 4 black cleavers with a last whisper as Wukong.

I have 240 bonus AD, maxed CDR, +1000 health (so around 3k total), two 30% shreds (so 51% shred total), and 60 armor pen just from items. With Wukong's passive, he sits somewhere around 120 armor and 80mr, abouts.

He is just as durable as a fully built carry with GA. Replace a Last Whisper with GA and you're now tankier, with more health. Your DPS isn't as good as the carry, but you hardly need DPS when you can easily burst down any non-tank within one ultimate combo.

I'm not going to disagree that a tank can build to survive it. I didn't mean to come off that way. But just because the tank can survive it doesn't mean they're going to make a difference about it.

The item stacking was broken. It might still be broken, but at least everyone who isn't a tank can now itemize against it if they need to.


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TealNinje

Senior Member

12-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nea De Penserhir View Post
Okay, now think about that build. It's entirely dedicated to defense, and protection if your tank has the abilities to do that.

It's a solid build. It takes a little thought and brings what you need.

I stack 4 black cleavers with a last whisper as Wukong.

I have 240 bonus AD, maxed CDR, +1000 health (so around 3k total), two 30% shreds (so 51% shred total), and 60 armor pen just from items. With Wukong's passive, he sits somewhere around 120 armor and 80mr, abouts.

He is just as durable as a fully built carry with GA. Replace a Last Whisper with GA and you're now tankier, with more health. Your DPS isn't as good as the carry, but you hardly need DPS when you can easily burst down any non-tank within one ultimate combo.

I'm not going to disagree that a tank can build to survive it. I didn't mean to come off that way. But just because the tank can survive it doesn't mean they're going to make a difference about it.

The item stacking was broken. It might still be broken, but at least everyone who isn't a tank can now itemize against it if they need to.
Everyone could itemize against it already.

Build a Randuin's Omen.

If you refuse to do that, then you've already blocked your own improvement as a player. You have reached your pinnacle, and will literally never get better until you are able to remove the idea that DPS do not build tank items.