Liandry's Torment Calculations?

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Feedbro

Senior Member

12-13-2012

I was doing some calculations regarding Liandry's to determine its value. And it changes drastically depending on how Liandry's DoT is calculated. I am really unsure as to how it actually works, so I'm asking now! Is Liandry's passive overridden every time you cast another spell? If it is, I think we have a pretty obvious answer as to why the item is OP on Teemo and rather balanced (if not underwhelming) on everyone else.

Also, I did this math a couple hours ago and realized a logical error on calculating how Miasma's poison would proc Liandry's, but if anything getting it right would simply support my conclusion farther.


Let's do some math!

Let's pick a generic AP mid who people tend to build Liandry's on...

Cassiopeia! I just picked that out of a hat.

Well. Not literally. But I just picked the first name to come to mind. In fact I haven't played Cass since S3 so there you go!

Let's say all she has is Liandry's and Sorc boots. That's 1100 gold for the boots and 2900 gold for Liandry's.

So 4000 gold total. Let's be generous here and say our Cass is a good player, nabbed first blood with the help of her jungler, and CS's well, I'd say she could feasibly have 4k by about 24 minutes or so.

I'd peg her at around level 12 or 13, but 12 is even so I'll stick with that.


Cass at level 12 naked would have 1280 HP.

Liandry's+Sorcs makes her 1480 HP, 70 AP (sans runes/masteries) and +30 flat mpen. And of course, the passive.

Her target is.... Ahri. Why not. She'll also be level 12, and since she's losing lane, we'll give her 3500 gold to spend. So she'll have Sorc Shoes for 1100, and with her 2400 remaining she chooses to rush for DFG and thus has a NLR and a Doran's Ring. Either way, she's sitting on her base MR of 30 and with +80 HP has 1340 HP.

Conveniently, 30 Mpen reduces Ahriís MR to 0 and thus allows for magic true damage, easing my calculations!

Cass decides to poke. Everyone's at full HP and mana.

One W>E would have the target slowed, let's use that as our base damage calculation here.

At level 12 with usual skilling she'd have rank 5 E and rank 1 W.

W's poison lasts 2 seconds, and applies the Liandry debuff. Causing one tick of the debuff before the E hits. However, W is a multitarget/periodic spell so Ahri takes half damage.

Liandry lasts 3 seconds and ticks every half second.

70 AP into rank 1 W ticks for 35.5 damage, applies Liandry's, there's one tick of Liandry. She takes 35.5 damage from the first tick of W, leaving her at 1304.5 HP. Liandry hits for 5% of that or 65.225 damage, over 3 ticks of 21.741 damage each. It only gets to tick once before being overridden by Twin Fang Liandry proc however, leaving Ahri at 1282.759 HP.

Now for Twin Fang, which hits for 229 with 70 AP, leaving Ahri at 1053.759 HP.

Now here's something I'm unsure of. Does Liandry override itself? Or does it work like most things in LoL and not have weaker effects override stronger? Because Miasma should tick one more time and thus proc the weaker Liandry's, but I'm going to assume it doesn't because that's how most of League works.

Liandry's burns 10% of that HP or 105.375 HP over 3 seconds, or 17.56265 per tick. Miasma only works for 2 seconds though, assuming Ahri isn't stupid enough to stand in it! So Ahri is only slowed for 3 of the 6 ticks, meaning she is hit for 3x the 17.5 dmg ticks and 3x 8.7813 dmg. Totals 79.03185 damage.

There's another tick of Miasma in there for 35.5, leaving Ahri at 939.22715 hp.

Total damage dealt by Liandry passive= 79+21= 100.77285 damage. 400.77285 total damage was dealt, meaning Liandryís passive consisted of 25.14% of total damage dealt. 300 was non-Liandry damage, meaning Liandryís passive accounted for a whopping 33% increase in damage.

Now obviously, this is the situation which would result in the highest % of damage being dealt by Liandry, as itís a trade, with a slow, using a direct damage spell, and allowing Liandryís the full duration as Ahri backs off from the dominant Cassiopeia.

A more realistic trade involving two twin fangs would reduce the % effectiveness of Liandryís passive by dealing full Twin Fang damage again. But hereís that same issue again, does Liandry overwrite the stronger DoT? Because by its own nature, every time you cast a spell that damages your opponent, you make the next Liandry passive weaker than the previous.

If Liandry damage were to be calculated on initial spellcast, and then have its duration refreshed while still having the same damage per tick, it would be incredibly overpowered on champions like Singed-- or Cassiopeia. Or Karthus. Or anyone with sustained DPS. As there isnít enormous outcry about how stupidly broken Liandryís is, II think I can say this isnít what happens. Now if it is overridden every time, then frankly the passive is useless for everything but poke. What would make the most sense to me is to have Liandry passive never be reset or reapplied and instead have it burn for its full duration, and then have the victim be vulnerable to another one.

Letís say it does override every time, which I think is what happens.

A second Twin Fang would hit for 229 after one 21.741 damage tick from the previous. Ahri would be at 807.19635 HP and proc another Liandryís, this one for 5% of 807 or 40.3598175 damage over 6 ticks, at 6.72663625 per. One is doubled from Miasma slow to 13.4532725, making for 47.08645375 damage. One Miasma tick hits for 35.5, leaving Ahri at 724.60989625 HP.

Liandryís total damage in this scenario is 90.56845375, out of 615.39010375 damage. This time it accounts for 14.71% of total damage dealt, and Liandryís passive results in a 17.25% increase in damage.

So essentially, the more spells you spam, the less you benefit from Liandryís.

If you measure the effectiveness of Liandryís passive as what % damage you gain from its presence, weíve just seen that adding one more spell to your rotation cuts the value of Liandryís in half.

Yes, that means there is exponential falloff in the value of Liandryís passive the more spells you cast. This is why Teemo is so damn good with the item. He has one spell in his rotation that procs Liandryís, and nothing to interrupt it from ticking at a high value. His mushrooms act the same, slowing for 4 seconds while Liandryís lasts for 3. In fact, while it would be super overpowered for harass purposes, I think we would find that allowing Liandry to proc off of his toxic shot would in fact reduce his overall damage in a 1v1 DPS race scenario.

Now obviously you still get something that builds out of haunting guise, which is great, and you get another item slot to fit a Tier 3 item with both AP and Mpen on it to go with your Void Staff and Abyssal...

But the more I look at this the more I think rushing Liandryís would be a bad decision on everyone but Teemo.

Everyone Iíve seen do this has simply pointed out the AP value of Liandryís passive as it relates to the % damage of hitting a slowed opponent with a single spell, without stopping to realize that unless you take one shot and leave or just start auto attacking (Teemo again...) you will never get the full 10% in damage because you will be consistently refreshing at diminishing values. The highest value you could get out of this item would be Teemo mushrooms, followed by AP Champions who cast fairly few spells (poke and burst mages) like Gragas or Brand (unless his passive reprocs Liandry's? I doubt it).


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Forte Blackadder

Senior Member

12-16-2012

This is exactly what I need to know too.
As a LeBlanc player, I mainly changed to Rylai+Liandry after S3. And the DoT was unnoticed to me. With someone like LB, a combo means death or near-death. And I many times saw a Teemo/MF walked away with like 50 HP after my combo from full health and Liandry's DoT did absolutely nothing on them.

I like the HP and MPen, but the passive is very bad for assassins, guess you can't have everything can you.


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

12-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forte Blackadder View Post
This is exactly what I need to know too.
As a LeBlanc player, I mainly changed to Rylai+Liandry after S3. And the DoT was unnoticed to me. With someone like LB, a combo means death or near-death. And I many times saw a Teemo/MF walked away with like 50 HP after my combo from full health and Liandry's DoT did absolutely nothing on them.

I like the HP and MPen, but the passive is very bad for assassins, guess you can't have everything can you.
Liandry's is calculated on current % HP, so yeah it would do absolutely nothing to them.


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Apollinarius

Senior Member

12-17-2012

I think the damage amount is calculated at every tick, not when it is procced. So, if you apply it to a full hp champion that gets reduced to 10% hp in one second, the tick after one second will be based on 10% of max.

The item combo is great on aoe initiators like Amumu or Brand or Malzahar, but really bad on single target burst like Veigar or Leblanc. The only way you would really benefit from it is if you use its damage to get them to 50% with poke, and then burst the rest with spell damage. Given how great the new DFG is, just stick to that on bursty champs.


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Dzanio

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forte Blackadder View Post
This is exactly what I need to know too.
As a LeBlanc player, I mainly changed to Rylai+Liandry after S3. And the DoT was unnoticed to me. With someone like LB, a combo means death or near-death. And I many times saw a Teemo/MF walked away with like 50 HP after my combo from full health and Liandry's DoT did absolutely nothing on them.

I like the HP and MPen, but the passive is very bad for assassins, guess you can't have everything can you.
Don't go Rylai's, your leash applies the movement impairment from liandry's, so a second slow is unneccessary. Also, the dot is mostly good for poking people, or for finishing them off if they're at 10 health, and ignite wasn't up. I have killed people with the dot, although the damage refreshes when new abilitys proc on a target, so it might just be that your combo isn't landing in the best order. Also, I find it helps if you don't rush liandry's, since it becomes more powerful after your opponent has built some HP items, but is almost useless until they do.


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Guaire

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Amumu with RoA, Rylais, Liandry's, Abyssal, Zhonyas, and boots. Laugh at the hilarious amounts of damage you do while still being tanky enough to initiate.


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Dzanio

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Yeah, the only problem with the amumu build is that every second of damage done by tears resets liandry's so that it does less damage. Since this damage is still OP it's ok though.


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3mptylord

Senior Member

12-18-2012

The only issue I can see is that you've failed to take into account the fact Liandry deals double damage against movement-impaired enemies... and Miasma applies a slow. ^_^


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Beaumains

Senior Member

12-19-2012

I don't think you're correct to say that Liandry's is weakened by chain casts. Second cast refreshes the DoT, and assuming it's a repeat cast (e.g. Twin Fang), all that it means is that you effectively get an extra tic or two of the less potent proc (i.e. after the slow wears off). In your example, the Second Twin Fang comes along 0.7 seconds after the First, so Proc #1 has tic'd twice (at initial hit & .5 second mark), with 2? - .7 = 1.3 seconds of slow left. So at .7 seconds, the target has taken 3 tics of Liandry's, and at 1.2 seconds they've taken 4 (whereas normally at 1.5 seconds they would have taken 4).

At 1.4 seconds a Third Twin Fang can hit, still in the 2 second window of slowing, and now the target has 5 tics on them rather than 4 ordinary tics for just one cast, all at the heightened value. Unfortunately a Fourth Twin Fang can't come along until 2.1 seconds, after the slow is over, but it will still burn for 3 seconds after that at the less potent value, and any casts after that will only extend the duration & increase the overall number of tics as described above.

Now, it's possible that I've missed something here and Liandry's doesn't actually tic on hit, but has to wait .5 seconds before the first tic. In that case the target is still taking tics at .5 seconds, 1.2 seconds, and 1.9 seconds, all at the more potent in-slow value, whereas a single proc would be ticking at .5, 1, and 1.5 seconds, with the 2 second tic being on the border of your hypothesis. But, you're also getting new Twin Fang procs (2 extra ones), so in this case the question becomes whether the 2 extra Fangs are worth more than the 2 extra Liandry procs. 230 > 20 >> 9, so I think it's probably worth it to commit to those extra hits.

Essentially, the way Liandry's works here is that you get the full (base) burn of 5% automatically, but you also get an extra 3-6 enhanced tics, which is an extra 5% - 10% burn, for free; and that adds up to 11% - 17% or more burn, vs 7% - 9% that you'd get just letting one instance go, plus you get the extra damage from those bonus nukes.

I originally saw this item as a laning/harassment tool - and it's really good in that regard, but really it's kind of like having a free ignite on hand, or an extra poison.


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danorth the sly

Senior Member

12-31-2012

i think its underpowered and your looking at 30 mpen wrong. it means you do 30 dmg that would be otherwise ignored am i the only one seeing this? it would be a fine item if it did %10 max hp dmg but took off the slow dmg, and your also not realising ONE fact . the duration is reduced my half for aoe and dot spells like shrooms.

in other words. 1.5 seconds of 10% current hp dmg. its OVER 1.5 seconds. NOT per .5 secs. wow so its really a under powered item not op. just looks like it. ever actually see the dmg output of it?


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