Riot, I would like some clarification on the Teemo nerfs

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Dues Pater

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Senior Member

12-14-2012

Hes still playable but rather than nerfing them i think its time you give teemo some changes. Some of us know its harder for teemo to deal with some of the newer champions you released. So why not give him some changes to make him up to par with some of your newer releases


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HeroesNeverQuit

Senior Member

12-14-2012

Thats how i see it. They nerfed it based on 2 items. Now that they were nerf based on those 2 items you pretty much need to get them or will be left behind in the long run.

To balance the hurricane it should have just made DOT at 50% damage. Problem solved for hurricanes.

Liandrys i dont have much experience with.


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xHellbound

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Member

12-14-2012

1. On-hit Teemo (compared to AP Teemo) utilizes mushrooms more as zone control and a kiting tool. Shroom damage is very nice but it is not what on-hit builds are aiming for. Contrast this with the AP Teemo, for him, shrooms are his main damage source. He is building loads of AP to create the shrooms of doom. So we decided to nerf base damages rather than the AP ratio (or the duration or slow strength for that matter) - this drives the gap between on-hit Teemo and AP Teemo's playstyles further apart and keeps what the different styles want for their shrooms intact..

On-hit Teemo builds Frozen Mallet because they do not rely on the slow from mushrooms. The trade-off for high damage mushrooms is that he is EXTREMELY squishy. Shrooms are his sense of security. Knowing that someone walked through a couple on their way to come gank you is the only thing leveling the playing field for Teemo.

2. I do not understand the logic here, are we never allowed to nerf AP ratios on mages since they 'should be a mage'? The ratio on E was nerfed because it and the high shroom base damage was driving on-hit Teemo and AP Teemo to become too similar. We took the opposite approach here compared to the shrooms as on-hits are affected much less by AP ratios, compared to AP.

How can you even argue that there's too much similarity between builds when Teemo is a basic-attack champ no matter how you build him? Unless you make shroom damage stack, AP Teemo still has to sit there basic attacking a champ to death simply because he has no burst. He wasn't a mage before, and he's definitely not going to be a mage now.

If I build on-hit, AP, or AD, I'm still going bot lane and playing the role of an ADC simply because that is all Teemo is designed to do. His Q blinds (not good against mid lane burst, or top lane bruisers), his W speeds him up (good for creating distance against the carries that out-range him), his E poisons (good against ADC's who stacked physical defense), and his shrooms are his sense of security.

3. Teemo was allowed very high damage on his E (and Q) AND on his R because the two did not merge easily. If you built AP your shrooms hurt a ton but your sustained dps was low, if you built on-hit your dps was high but you put yourself in danger because you don't contribute as much outside your short autoattack range. Season 3 basically took away this distinction as it both made his shrooms more powerful AND improved his in combat dps by a lot. (The initial buffs to his E ratio also caused this and I had regretted it since then, it should have been buffed less)

So.. instead of letting Teemo have his full arsenal, we have to choose? How is that balanced compared to every other champ who gets the full benefit from each of his/her skills? Even Kayle has AD and AP ratios on her Q/E skills. He's now more useless than a support, and now that these nerfs will make him a support, he's also a terrible support! I've tried to make it viable, it doesn't work. Shrooms aren't wards, blind doesn't stop your ADC from dying, poison KS's creeps from your ADC, and running away is the only thing Teemo will be good for after this nerf.

RIP Teemo.

Edit: The only good thing about this nerf is that at least I will know to dodge when there's a Teemo. It was usually 50/50 before, now it's 100% concluded.


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50West

Senior Member

12-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamWorkTom View Post
So it takes less than two weeks for a champion to be decided that they are over the top when they were not even viable a season before?
Huh? Who said they weren't evaluating these changes in S2? The new items certainly helped give him some extra damage over what he had in S2, so it doesn't take long to figure out how people can build him to increase his overall DPS with the new items.

Quote:
So I guess you don't want to allow the LoL community to figure out how to handle a change.
See post above. Riot did figure out how the community was handling the change, and it wasn't difficult to increase his DPS over, obviously, what Riot intended. Teemo's DPS can be ridiculous for practically no sacrifice. I don't even know the last time I saw an AP Teemo.

Quote:
It seems more and more that you guys support the Bruiser top Ap Mid Jungle AD Support Bottom Meta. Teemo just proves this even more with a ranged squishy AP/AD hybrid that usually goes top getting nerfed once he is actually considered viable by some people.
I don't understand. The meta is what people make it. I see Teemo go mid, top or bot. Are you saying he should be viable at all of them? Teemo is a lane counter-pick, plain and simple. He isn't a teamfighter, and that is why he doesn't have any cohesiveness with practically any teamp comp. That's like saying, "Well, ________ is my favorite champion and I think he should be viable in every lane and have no sacrifices between builds, so I can build whatever I want with no trade-offs and still do well."


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Blaine Tog

Senior Member

12-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
(The initial buffs to his E ratio also caused this and I had regretted it since then, it should have been buffed less)
Yeah, I actually went out and did the math, and AP Teemo dealt had almost exactly the same DPS as on-hit Teemo with his auto-attacks, even taking the differences in attack speed into account (on-hit Teemo was slightly tankier, but not by much). Spellblade and the new Malady have only made AP Teemo even more of a no-brainer. I suspect AP Teemo will still be strictly better than on-hit, but I could be wrong.


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Timid Gengar

Senior Member

12-14-2012

All I have to say if you're having trouble laning against Teemo in S3 use Urgot . He dumps on him pretty hard


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Flayne

Senior Member

12-14-2012

Thread is full of butthurt "normal game" teemo abusers. Gotta love that, I hope you're all in agony with snot filled tears running down your face.

Chances are you're not because he is still strong as ****.


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Rubeus

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Senior Member

12-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
I realize that I worded my initial post badly. (English too hard) Teemo was nerfed because we felt he was out of line and I was explaining why we chose the specific areas to hit - to preserve the unique parts of each style as much as possible.

We would never nerf a balanced champion for diversity's sake. Logically, if a champion is balanced and we want to 'diversify' him, the champion would at least need a buff/nerf. A flat nerf does not make amy sense.

So instead of having one of those choices be viable. You made neither of them good.

I understand the on hit hurt too badly early on.But that was his only real strength early game. I changed what I maxed first depending on who I was up against top lane. Either Q or E if I needed burst of if I needed to offset sustain.

But by lowering his overall damage all you've really done is just make a bigger difference between what AP teemo could do then and now. On hit loses very little damage out of his toxic shot.

Ap teemo loses out on a lot more with these nerfs so now I have to build him like every other mage in the game to get not even as much damage out of my kit as I use to get.

Teemo isn't a mage nuker at all. He has an auto attack that has less range that nearly any mages spells. His blinding dart's cooldown is long because of the blinding component. And now I can't leave 1k damage mushrooms around like I use to which was honestly my favorite part of ap teemo.

I would have rather had Liandry's removed than take these nerfs to him honestly.

AP teemo build hasn't changed.
Liandry, Boots, Rylais, Deathcap, Lich Bane, Void Staff if lots of MR, Malady if not. (This is not build order)

It just does a lot less damage now. SO MUCH FOR EVER GETTING TO PLAY HIM AS ANYTHING OTHER THAN A COUNTERPICK IN SR!


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Vivi R66

Senior Member

12-14-2012

Wait, how dare you answer Teemo threads and ignore Rengar?


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Gullitomb

Senior Member

12-14-2012

can we just delete him already?
RIOT PLS?