Riot, I would like some clarification on the Teemo nerfs

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Arctic Bro

Member

12-14-2012

Dps Teemo is OP cuz of red lights on screen(red = mad) until you kill or leave his zone, now dps Teemo is barely usable :/
The items are good but you need to farm..
also the mpen runes nerf didn't halp QQ


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Amarth

Senior Member

12-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
1. On-hit Teemo (compared to AP Teemo) utilizes mushrooms more as zone control and a kiting tool. Shroom damage is very nice but it is not what on-hit builds are aiming for. Contrast this with the AP Teemo, for him, shrooms are his main damage source. He is building loads of AP to create the shrooms of doom. So we decided to nerf base damages rather than the AP ratio (or the duration or slow strength for that matter) - this drives the gap between on-hit Teemo and AP Teemo's playstyles further apart and keeps what the different styles want for their shrooms intact..

2. I do not understand the logic here, are we never allowed to nerf AP ratios on mages since they 'should be a mage'? The ratio on E was nerfed because it and the high shroom base damage was driving on-hit Teemo and AP Teemo to become too similar. We took the opposite approach here compared to the shrooms as on-hits are affected much less by AP ratios, compared to AP.

3. Teemo was allowed very high damage on his E (and Q) AND on his R because the two did not merge easily. If you built AP your shrooms hurt a ton but your sustained dps was low, if you built on-hit your dps was high but you put yourself in danger because you don't contribute as much outside your short autoattack range. Season 3 basically took away this distinction as it both made his shrooms more powerful AND improved his in combat dps by a lot. (The initial buffs to his E ratio also caused this and I had regretted it since then, it should have been buffed less)
Finally a Red I feel ok about upvoting. You guys have been in short supply lately.


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TeamWorkTom

Senior Member

12-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amarth View Post
Finally a Red I feel ok about upvoting. You guys have been in short supply lately.
Yet he hasn't responded to my thread that actually questions the reason for the need to diversify Teemo.

Diversity if its only for the sake of diversity.


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1800CoolGuy

Senior Member

12-14-2012

All i know is that teemo's mushroom would do 50-60% dmg to many champs in my last few games that had a teemo playing.


That is way way too much considering how he can spam the mushrooms.


Also i would like to say that about 95% of the time teemo dominated the game.


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Solcrushed

Live Balance Designer

12-14-2012
3 of 3 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamWorkTom View Post
The reasoning is wonderful but the practicality of it isn't. To nerf something because two roles are similar is terrible justification for over all balance. Teemo in S2 had no real spot on a team. Even now he is still a Top pick and not an AD and arguably still dose not have a true place in a team.

You could theory craft many team compositions and he has no real synergy to any team, he is an odd pick and usually picked for specific reasons such as extra ward coverage or a counter pick.

With that being said, does his current state of balance really warrant a nerf? Is he ruining games because of the new items? Or is it just that AP Teemo and On-Hit Teemo are too similar in their role and you want diversity for the sake of diversity instead of over all champion balance?
I realize that I worded my initial post badly. (English too hard) Teemo was nerfed because we felt he was out of line and I was explaining why we chose the specific areas to hit - to preserve the unique parts of each style as much as possible.

We would never nerf a balanced champion for diversity's sake. Logically, if a champion is balanced and we want to 'diversify' him, the champion would at least need a buff/nerf. A flat nerf does not make amy sense.


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Zinwrath

Senior Member

12-14-2012

Just curious. Has it ever crossed your mind to sort of normalize teemo the way you have other champions that dont fit well into the meta?

Right now as mentioned hes a very niche pick. While he does counter some champs and offers extra map control his team presence is often replacing what might have been a tankier bruiser.

So i guess the question is. Did you ever try increasing his range to that of graves lowering the damage on his E and fitting him into a ranged carry role? Or perhaps working him to be a jungler? I like teemo and i enjoy playing him in his current role....but due to him sticking out as an awkward pick "like urgot" i always wondered if he would ever be given the "twitch" treatment for example.


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TeamWorkTom

Senior Member

12-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
I realize that I worded my initial post badly. (English too hard) Teemo was nerfed because we felt he was out of line and I was explaining why we chose the specific areas to hit - to preserve the unique parts of each style as much as possible.

We would never nerf a balanced champion for diversity's sake. Logically, if a champion is balanced and we want to 'diversify' him, the champion would at least need a buff/nerf. A flat nerf does not make amy sense.
So it takes less than two weeks for a champion to be decided that they are over the top when they were not even viable a season before?

So I guess you don't want to allow the LoL community to figure out how to handle a change. It seems more and more that you guys support the Bruiser top Ap Mid Jungle AD Support Bottom Meta.

Teemo just proves this even more with a ranged squishy AP/AD hybrid that usually goes top getting nerfed once he is actually considered viable by some people.


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Arcus Veles

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Senior Member

12-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
1. On-hit Teemo (compared to AP Teemo) utilizes mushrooms more as zone control and a kiting tool. Shroom damage is very nice but it is not what on-hit builds are aiming for. Contrast this with the AP Teemo, for him, shrooms are his main damage source. He is building loads of AP to create the shrooms of doom. So we decided to nerf base damages rather than the AP ratio (or the duration or slow strength for that matter) - this drives the gap between on-hit Teemo and AP Teemo's playstyles further apart and keeps what the different styles want for their shrooms intact..

2. I do not understand the logic here, are we never allowed to nerf AP ratios on mages since they 'should be a mage'? The ratio on E was nerfed because it and the high shroom base damage was driving on-hit Teemo and AP Teemo to become too similar. We took the opposite approach here compared to the shrooms as on-hits are affected much less by AP ratios, compared to AP.

3. Teemo was allowed very high damage on his E (and Q) AND on his R because the two did not merge easily. If you built AP your shrooms hurt a ton but your sustained dps was low, if you built on-hit your dps was high but you put yourself in danger because you don't contribute as much outside your short autoattack range. Season 3 basically took away this distinction as it both made his shrooms more powerful AND improved his in combat dps by a lot. (The initial buffs to his E ratio also caused this and I had regretted it since then, it should have been buffed less)
Do you think, in the long run, we could see a bit of a rework to his kit to further separate the tanky on-hit and hard AP builds? Something to make AS/shred and AP two separate niches that you can pick between or go hybrid on.

Right now Teemo's kit is kind of straightforward and doesn't give you a truly different feel between his two major build types. AD and AP Ezreal is a good example of parallel builds, CDR + Hybrid Kayle vs. AD Kayle is another decent one. They play nearly entirely differently the further you get down each build's item path.

If we could get a little more added to his kit so AS and AP each feel rewarding in their own ways without his kit as a whole feeling underpowered that would be great. These hard numbers nerfs just sort of feel crappy for both builds. Something like a stacking debuff on E increasing the damage and effectiveness of his Q would be a good start, for instance.



On-hit Teemo did use the damage on those shrooms, by the way, and especially that base damage. Kiting and shredding with Malady and leading enemies in to shrooms to take advantage of their lowered mres worked well. It isn't just a slow mine for continued kiting with autos. That's why most Teemo's get a Phage -> Frozen Mallet. Flat numbers nerfs on shrooms hurts on-hit/shred a lot more than AP.


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Malloreon

Senior Member

12-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
I realize that I worded my initial post badly. (English too hard) Teemo was nerfed because we felt he was out of line and I was explaining why we chose the specific areas to hit - to preserve the unique parts of each style as much as possible.

We would never nerf a balanced champion for diversity's sake. Logically, if a champion is balanced and we want to 'diversify' him, the champion would at least need a buff/nerf. A flat nerf does not make amy sense.
Why haven't you commented on how you guys destroyed Diana?


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Silky Johnsonn

Junior Member

12-14-2012

Oh its simple its because fuk u and fuk teemo


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