Riot, I would like some clarification on the Teemo nerfs

First Riot Post
123456 ... 10
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Arcus Veles

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-13-2012

The E nerf was coming, .4 is pretty high for an on-hit, let alone on a champ with amazing base AS like Teemo's. Double or triple that ratio occasionally if you've got a Runaan's. Mush nerfs are too hard-hitting though, especially if you aren't going pen/AP.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

TheWheatOne

Senior Member

12-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcus2658 View Post
The E nerf was coming, .4 is pretty high for an on-hit, let alone on a champ with amazing base AS like Teemo's.
The reason it was so high in the first place is because he has only 3 skills that use AP, and secondly, the tick damage would never come except for the last attack, since it does not stack, so in essence, it doesn't actually do that much. And he practically needs to hit hard fast, as he'll die so fast in team fights as to not matter. At .3 ratio, that effectively cuts it by 25%, which is huge.

He's now even more unviable in team fights, worse than even late-game Udyr. He basically is now forced into building Hurricane, as his single-target output is astonishingly low (he will almost never win a duel if all item defense/offense is equal). The irony is that the AoE is very small, and along with his horrifically low range, he'll never be able to use it effectively regardless. Any Carry, AD or AP is now better than him, even by basic numbers. And that's not counting how Teemo players are supposed to lure high-skilled competitive opponents into their shrooms, and make them forget buying oracles, or elude their stun/blind/knock-up/snare/dashes when using toxic shot.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Solcrushed

Live Balance Designer

12-14-2012
1 of 3 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yfrappefort View Post
As you guys know, Teemo is getting some nerfs soon :



I'll try to explain the nerfs to the best of my understanding. They nerfed his mushrooms because of two things :

a) Liandry's Torment synergized too well with his mushrooms
b) Oracle duration being reduced to 5 minutes

Now, I have three questions for Riot.

1. If the mushrooms did too much damage (assuming they really did), why not nerf the AP ratio instead of the base damage?

In season 3, we were told that items and mastery would increase build diversity and play style.

However, with the nerf to the base damage of the mushrooms, it penalizes even further anyone who is not playing AP Teemo. Not everyone play AP Teemo (he can also be played on-hit, bruiser, hybrid, etc.) nor does everyone build Liandry's Torment. By doing this, you are narrowing Teemo players to play only AP, since any other build will be less effective.

2. Xypherous told us that, with the new Runaan's Hurricane item, he would love to see Teemo become an "aoe mage". If so, then why nerf the AP ratio on his E, his main source of damage?

I think Teemo's issue is that his poison does too much damage early, and not enough end game. Then why nerf his AP ratio and make Teemo's late game even more unstable instead of adjusting the early game number? His short range makes him already hard to even use as an aoe mage to begin with.

3. Why would you nerf a champion solely because of items?

Let's face it, the only reason Teemo is getting nerfed is because of some of the new items. I think nerfing a champion based on the items a player MIGHT get is a very bad move. If anything, the item should be nerfed, not the champion.

I'dd love some clarification on these nerfs, because I just don't understand them, and I think they go against the philosophy that Riot wanted to instore in season 3, which is to improve player’s choice, and not reduce them.

I'll also leave a link to another very valid post featuring some issues about the nerfs : http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...ghlight=runaan

One of the quote included in this post :
1. On-hit Teemo (compared to AP Teemo) utilizes mushrooms more as zone control and a kiting tool. Shroom damage is very nice but it is not what on-hit builds are aiming for. Contrast this with the AP Teemo, for him, shrooms are his main damage source. He is building loads of AP to create the shrooms of doom. So we decided to nerf base damages rather than the AP ratio (or the duration or slow strength for that matter) - this drives the gap between on-hit Teemo and AP Teemo's playstyles further apart and keeps what the different styles want for their shrooms intact..

2. I do not understand the logic here, are we never allowed to nerf AP ratios on mages since they 'should be a mage'? The ratio on E was nerfed because it and the high shroom base damage was driving on-hit Teemo and AP Teemo to become too similar. We took the opposite approach here compared to the shrooms as on-hits are affected much less by AP ratios, compared to AP.

3. Teemo was allowed very high damage on his E (and Q) AND on his R because the two did not merge easily. If you built AP your shrooms hurt a ton but your sustained dps was low, if you built on-hit your dps was high but you put yourself in danger because you don't contribute as much outside your short autoattack range. Season 3 basically took away this distinction as it both made his shrooms more powerful AND improved his in combat dps by a lot. (The initial buffs to his E ratio also caused this and I had regretted it since then, it should have been buffed less)


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Fayori

Senior Member

12-14-2012

Reds throwing that logic around. Aw yeah.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Pragz

Senior Member

12-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
3. Teemo was allowed very high damage on his E (and Q) AND on his R because the two did not merge easily. If you built AP your shrooms hurt a ton but your sustained dps was low, if you built on-hit your dps was high but you put yourself in danger because you don't contribute as much outside your short autoattack range. Season 3 basically took away this distinction as it both made his shrooms more powerful AND improved his in combat dps by a lot. (The initial buffs to his E ratio also caused this and I had regretted it since then, it should have been buffed less)
So instead of changing one and seeing how that fared, you nerf both? Riot has always been famous for their "nerf gun nerfs" approach of slowly bringing a champion's power down until they're at a good level. But these nerfs affect both of the strongest aspects of all Teemo builds, and they're both harsh nerfs. You can imagine why we're all so concerned.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Averforge

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-14-2012

i guess im just angry because i finaly felt like teemo had hope but yea i can see where this is coming from after reading some actual reasoning behind the nerfs and not just "teemos op qq" but still ap teemo gets countered hard by oracles and provides little to nothing in most situations once people realize this while on hit teemo gets way to close for comfort and blows up to kingdom come when you could do both it felt i dont know.. right i guess? ive lost and won since s3 but focusing on one side of teemo or the other is really hard considering both have major flaws and they kind of balanced each other out nicely since your shrooms did enough damage to scare them away so you could hit them and not get instantly killed


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

exe3

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-14-2012

@ Solcrushed

Can you speak at all about what is being done about Teemo for Twisted Treeline? He is completely broken on that map due to the sheer density of his shroom coverage. RiotNome said that something was going to be done about him but I don't believe this is what he was talking about as these nerfs don't address his problems on TT at all.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

TeamWorkTom

Senior Member

12-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
1. On-hit Teemo (compared to AP Teemo) utilizes mushrooms more as zone control and a kiting tool. Shroom damage is very nice but it is not what on-hit builds are aiming for. Contrast this with the AP Teemo, for him, shrooms are his main damage source. He is building loads of AP to create the shrooms of doom. So we decided to nerf base damages rather than the AP ratio (or the duration or slow strength for that matter) - this drives the gap between on-hit Teemo and AP Teemo's playstyles further apart and keeps what the different styles want for their shrooms intact..

2. I do not understand the logic here, are we never allowed to nerf AP ratios on mages since they 'should be a mage'? The ratio on E was nerfed because it and the high shroom base damage was driving on-hit Teemo and AP Teemo to become too similar. We took the opposite approach here compared to the shrooms as on-hits are affected much less by AP ratios, compared to AP.

3. Teemo was allowed very high damage on his E (and Q) AND on his R because the two did not merge easily. If you built AP your shrooms hurt a ton but your sustained dps was low, if you built on-hit your dps was high but you put yourself in danger because you don't contribute as much outside your short autoattack range. Season 3 basically took away this distinction as it both made his shrooms more powerful AND improved his in combat dps by a lot. (The initial buffs to his E ratio also caused this and I had regretted it since then, it should have been buffed less)
The reasoning is wonderful but the practicality of it isn't. To nerf something because two roles are similar is terrible justification for over all balance. Teemo in S2 had no real spot on a team. Even now he is still a Top pick and not an AD and arguably still dose not have a true place in a team.

You could theory craft many team compositions and he has no real synergy to any team, he is an odd pick and usually picked for specific reasons such as extra ward coverage or a counter pick.

With that being said, does his current state of balance really warrant a nerf? Is he ruining games because of the new items? Or is it just that AP Teemo and On-Hit Teemo are too similar in their role and you want diversity for the sake of diversity instead of over all champion balance?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Henry Plainview

Senior Member

12-14-2012

I said at the time that the Toxic Shot buff was ridiculous, but I got downvoted


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Solcrushed

Live Balance Designer

12-14-2012
2 of 3 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by exe3 View Post
@ Solcrushed

Can you speak at all about what is being done about Teemo for Twisted Treeline? He is completely broken on that map due to the sheer density of his shroom coverage. RiotNome said that something was going to be done about him but I don't believe this is what he was talking about as these nerfs don't address his problems on TT at all.
Unfortunately TT is much more Nome's realm than mine and I am not very aware what is being done here. That said, I am sure Nome will figure something out and I will ping him tomorrow to make sure that he is working on the issue. (Note that I may not be able to give you information for a variety of reasons, I merely promise that it will continue to be looked at)


123456 ... 10