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The Black Cleaver Isn't Over-Powered, Counter Playing is

I agree 12 22.64%
I disagree 41 77.36%
Voters 53 .

Stop Saying Black Cleaver is Over-Powered Learn to Counter Play

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Voluug

Senior Member

12-13-2012

BC is OP in some champion's hands. Like Riven, who, unlike, say Talon and Pantheon, cant survive a CC-> Focus damage like riven. All in all, the problematic champs with BC are RADC and Riven. As always RADC are problematic.


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GatorHatur

Senior Member

12-13-2012

Just build frozen heart and randuins are enough to counter the BC... FH passive reduces Attack Speed from of surrounding champs by 20% while randuins will reduce their Attacks speed a further 20% when they AA you..While a champ with multiple BC will reduce your armor their DPS will be much much lower... and since they have no damage you can effectively kill them in a fight situation.

FYI thats 160 armor... with 4 BC thats still only reduces you to 112 armor... and after the flat reduction reduces you to 52 armor... far from true damage... now lets say just to counter them you even got

Ninja Tabi (or any boots for that matter), 2 BC yourself and those two armor items and something as simple as a BT... you'd be demolishing them...because A) they have no real defense...besides health B) they wont out DPS you because C) The health from randuins effectively gives you the same health as the 2 additional BC. D) Frozen Heart gives you just as much cool down reduction...

So now you effective have just as much CDR and Health as the person with 4 BC... more armor... there is no reason you should not win in this match up... heck the AS debuff may even make your AS faster than theirs... and yet you now have more effective health...!!


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Alkorin

Junior Member

12-13-2012

Quote:
Beaumains:
Wait, someone really asked how Warmogs, at 1000 true hp, counters 200 true damage? How about by making them hit you 5 extra times. I think you can do more damage to them in that time with . . . 3 black cleavers than they can do to you with 4. Or get Omen; carries who stack BCs don't deal damage, so they tend to forego it; getting stuff that actually does damage. So what happens when you see the enemy Garen get 4 cleavers? Thank him. Now you know who to ignore; it's a 5 vs 4, go win; focus the carry like always, and save the squishy, damageless "tank" for last.


What happens when you see a Garen with Black Cleaver, Sunfire Cape, Warmog's, Frozen Mallet, and Atma's Impaler? Also, I'd like you to show me any AD champion that only hits for 200 damage past level 11.


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GatorHatur

Senior Member

12-13-2012

Quote:
Alkorin:
What happens when you see a Garen with Black Cleaver, Sunfire Cape, Warmog's, Frozen Mallet, and Atma's Impaler?


I think people are more concerned about BC stacking... than anything else... I don't know if Riot ever intended for people to stack it... They may have anticipated that people would and that the community would struggle with it, but that there are ways to counter it because stacking past 2 BC is not efficient at all.. Heck sometime 2 is one too many...


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Alkorin

Junior Member

12-13-2012

Quote:
GatorHatur:
I think people are more concerned about BC stacking... than anything else... I don't know if Riot ever intended for people to stack it... They may have anticipated that people would and that the community would struggle with it, but that there are ways to counter it because stacking past 2 BC is not efficient at all.. Heck sometime 2 is one too many...


While I do think it was a mistake to make the flat armor penetration on Black Cleaver stackable, I think the main issue is that Black Cleaver has become a mandatory item for almost all physical damage dealers; in trying to increase item diversity Riot actually decreased it in this regard. Even tanky champions like Riven and Garen can build only one and increase their damage by quite a noticeable margin.


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axesandspears

Senior Member

12-13-2012

Quote:
Peligrad:
There is no counter play to BC.

One BC on a team with someone like Riven, Panth, Talon, or Garen and the whole other team has 30% less armor for a team fight.

Now all the enemy ADC has to do is build a LW and run WE mastery and it ignores 58% of your armor...

You can't counter build against that. Armor is supposed to be the stat that provides the best protection against physical damage. With BC and LW mulitplicatively stacking like they do, armor become a useless stat... HP become more functional than Armor to mitigate physical...

And HP stacking isn't a good idea because Amumu, Brand, Liandry's Torment, Blade of the Ruined King, and dozens of other things counter hp stacking ridiculously hard.

So any champion that needs to be tanky to be effective is now useless...

And it becomes a game of who can smash the other first...

That's bad PvP...that's why many of us who play LoL quit WoW...

I thought that was why EVERYONE quite WoW.

Anyway, there are some points to be made here.
  • More damage does not make for better games.
  • Faster kills do not make better games.
  • More items options do not make better games. They are harder to balance, the mechanical balance become unstable, and the redundant options lead to scenarios where one choice is the WRONG CHOICE, because other choices are clearly better.
  • Utility+damage is a BAD THING! There is a reason why most of the game's cooldown reduction and other utility used to be centered around defensive items. You don't snowball off defense. Players should have to sacrifice SOMETHING to build utility. The best thing to sacrifice is always damage, because a champion with high utility and damage is often harder to deal with than a champion with utility and defense. Cooldown reduction itself used to be a defensive stat. There were exceptions for ap of course because mages are based on ability cooldowns, but the bulk of cooldown reduction was directly tied to defensive items. A lot of ad champions were not balanced around cooldown reductions, and most mages were balanced around giving up defense or damage to obtain it.
  • The increased snowballing makes for a lousy game: Everything is one-sided. Games rarely come close anymore. From my own experience, I noticed that as time went on players have begun surrendering earlier and earlier in games since I started playing 3 years ago.....because when players start losing it feels like their chances dissipate earlier and earlier now.


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Cavil

Junior Member

12-13-2012

Quote:
Alkorin:
While I do think it was a mistake to make the flat armor penetration on Black Cleaver stackable, I think the main issue is that Black Cleaver has become a mandatory item for almost all physical damage dealers; in trying to increase item diversity Riot actually decreased it in this regard. Even tanky champions like Riven and Garen can build only one and increase their damage by quite a noticeable margin.

Well that was the intention of allowing it for ad casters because it was finally something that ad casters can use and increase there damage output, remember this item was in beta basically as all their new item releases are, there looking for feedback from people and there always looking for suggestions, I don't think this item is too much over-powered, but yes the stats are really good, I believe there are counters to it, but the job is done Riot heard our voices and are nerfing it, its time to change this section from black cleavers to other items or suggestions for new items.


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Cavil

Junior Member

12-13-2012

Quote:
Vongeo:
Also, If you are a champion with an armor buff, and they have 80% pen, you are pretty much down a move.

On the notion of hope for humanity, I know not why hope is sprung from such silly thing, or why you are so faithless in humanities hope as it is, but I see such words as Hypocrisy. Bawwing then complaining about the baws of others. I'm not saying he can't learn or have a change in heart, but it isn't his High horse to look down upon us from.

Lol, my high horse? I'm just tired of everyone complaining so much of the Black Cleaver especially when it was already being nerfed, It's uneccesary at this point, and no I don't think im better than anyone else in this section, in general really, Im just asking people to stop complaining about it because even though I had orignally posted on this issue being upset I feel like some of the ideas people gave me really improved facing this build, but please dont think of me as arrogant or pompous, either or im not looking down on anyone so please dont post of me as such


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Beaumains

Senior Member

12-13-2012

Quote:
Alkorin:
What happens when you see a Garen with Black Cleaver, Sunfire Cape, Warmog's, Frozen Mallet, and Atma's Impaler? Also, I'd like you to show me any AD champion that only hits for 200 damage past level 11.


Then that Garen isn't a 4-cleaver noob, and you should treat him accordingly. He's still not the most dangerous thing around though, since (last I checked/tried) his Spin doesn't proc, so he's still got a wasted slot. Also, since he has no MR, ask your friendly neighborhood Malzahar to erase him for you.


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