The Black Cleaver Isn't Over-Powered, Counter Playing is

I agree 12 22.64%
I disagree 41 77.36%
Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

Stop Saying Black Cleaver is Over-Powered Learn to Counter Play

123
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

TealNinje

Senior Member

12-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane Azmadi View Post
There IS no counterplay to Black Cleaver. Buy a Warmogs? Wow, that'll really help you when the enemy is doing true damage to you with every autoattack.

The item IS overpowered. Attempting to argue it isn't it like arguing release Xin Zhao or Vayne weren't overpowered: simply wrong.
Randuin's Omen.

500 health. 70 armor. Sweet teamfight active.

What most of you seem to be stuck on is the incorrect idea of each Black Cleaver having its own stack. They don't. If you have 4 Black Cleavers, after your first attack they will be at 70% armor. After your second attack, they will STILL be at 70% armor. Third, same. Fourth, same. If they have a Last Whisper after this, then you'll be at 42% armor. Randuin's Omen will STILL add 29.4 armor after these reductions. With EVERY champions base armor, this will bring you out of the "true damage" zone (because you'll be above 60 armor.) You can add in ANY other armor item after this and start HEAVILY reducing the damage you take. After that you can build more focused damage items instead of the "hurr durr I have 4 Black Cleavers and no survivability" shamble that you seem to be having problems with.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Blue Scarlet

Senior Member

12-13-2012

A garen soloed my team with jarvan jungle, hermi mid, darius top, taric support, and graves adc using 3 black cleavers and his E skill.....

all at once....
Black Cleaver is a good item but I really believe a nerf should happen and prevent ppl stacking that item....

Garen was doing over 1k dmg and it was pretty much true dmg because of the armor pen.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

EndOmega

Member

12-13-2012

I love how this item BARELY CHANGED from before and now people are complaining about it. The old BC still had the stacking ArmPen and people rarely took it, instead it was a 'situational if you feel like it item'. Add a few extra stats and OH NO ITS OP GET RID OF IT.

Guess what people who call this an OP auto pick item: if its an autopick then that means your team is going to have them too. If you are still losing in that situation, then that means you played poorly early game and allowed the other team to build better faster, and thats more your fault than the items.

However one thing that could be fixed to make it so that people will stop complaining is if they made the passive unique so that someone couldnt build more than one and abuse it or that the entire teams cleavers only affect a single stack.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Zaurok

Senior Member

12-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by EndOmega View Post
I love how this item BARELY CHANGED from before and now people are complaining about it. The old BC still had the stacking ArmPen and people rarely took it, instead it was a 'situational if you feel like it item'. Add a few extra stats and OH NO ITS OP GET RID OF IT.

Guess what people who call this an OP auto pick item: if its an autopick then that means your team is going to have them too. If you are still losing in that situation, then that means you played poorly early game and allowed the other team to build better faster, and thats more your fault than the items.

However one thing that could be fixed to make it so that people will stop complaining is if they made the passive unique so that someone couldnt build more than one and abuse it or that the entire teams cleavers only affect a single stack.
Barely Changed? The ArmPen debuff was unique AND was flat armor reduction. Getting 2 cleaver didn't give you more ArmPen nor did it make the stacking faster. It also didn't have HP nor CDR.

This new cleaver gives you ArmPen, CDR, HP and the passive % armor shredding stack. It is no way close to being the same as the old cleaver.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

VladimirSnakeyes

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Recruiter

12-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane Azmadi View Post
There IS no counterplay to Black Cleaver. Buy a Warmogs? Wow, that'll really help you when the enemy is doing true damage to you with every autoattack.

The item IS overpowered. Attempting to argue it isn't it like arguing release Xin Zhao or Vayne weren't overpowered: simply wrong.
To anybody that claims the item allows you to deal true damage when stacked, i give you a challenge:

Try building several in a custom game with a friend or bots. This will allow you to look at the armor and debuff status of any enemy you attack, without the pressure of a real game. You should notice that all the primary elements of BC stack, however the secondary does not truly stack. Building multiple allows you to reach the normal maximum of 4 debuff stacks quicker (ie 2 hits with 2 BC applies 4 stacks), however it will never allow you to exceed this 4 debuff cap.

If anybody can post a picture showing more then 4 stacks of the debuff i will remove this post and agree that BC is overpowered. Knowing that this is impossible however, you should know that spending 1188 gold gets you 70hp and 25 attack damage. It would be much more economical to simply get a second brutalizer a ruby crystal and a pickaxe.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Binxy Prime

Senior Member

12-13-2012

You dont build 4 to make it overpowerd, you build like 2 of them, or even 1 of them and a last whisper, with last whisper and BC you reduce armor to like ~30% then you reduce it flat by another 25 or so with runes and masteries, more if you have 2 cleavers.

The item just shouldnt add health, if they want health they should have to invest in it like everyone else, if it had no health on it and had its stats nerfed a little bit and made unique the item would be fine.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Captainascetic

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Member

12-13-2012

One of Riot's main objectives for Season 3 was to promote build diversity. Having Black Cleaver's passive as stackable promotes building the same item twice. I don't really see their logic here.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

VladimirSnakeyes

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Recruiter

12-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captainascetic View Post
One of Riot's main objectives for Season 3 was to promote build diversity. Having Black Cleaver's passive as stackable promotes building the same item twice. I don't really see their logic here.
It is not truly stackable, that would imply that you could get 8 stacks from 2 which would be overpowered. As it is, a BC and a ghostblade nets far more damage for roughly the same cost.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Beaumains

Senior Member

12-13-2012

Wait, someone really asked how Warmogs, at 1000 true hp, counters 200 true damage? How about by making them hit you 5 extra times. I think you can do more damage to them in that time with . . . 3 black cleavers than they can do to you with 4. Or get Omen; carries who stack BCs don't deal damage, so they tend to forego it; getting stuff that actually does damage. So what happens when you see the enemy Garen get 4 cleavers? Thank him. Now you know who to ignore; it's a 5 vs 4, go win; focus the carry like always, and save the squishy, damageless "tank" for last.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Peligrad

Senior Member

12-13-2012

There is no counter play to BC.

One BC on a team with someone like Riven, Panth, Talon, or Garen and the whole other team has 30% less armor for a team fight.

Now all the enemy ADC has to do is build a LW and run WE mastery and it ignores 58% of your armor...

You can't counter build against that. Armor is supposed to be the stat that provides the best protection against physical damage. With BC and LW mulitplicatively stacking like they do, armor become a useless stat... HP become more functional than Armor to mitigate physical...

And HP stacking isn't a good idea because Amumu, Brand, Liandry's Torment, Blade of the Ruined King, and dozens of other things counter hp stacking ridiculously hard.

So any champion that needs to be tanky to be effective is now useless...

And it becomes a game of who can smash the other first...

That's bad PvP...that's why many of us who play LoL quit WoW...


123