Too little MR on items and too much %ArP available?

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Koillu

Senior Member

12-15-2012

Is it me or are there almost no good MR items that give a big amount of MR? I mean, the best you can get is 60 from Runic Bulwark, and then you have to reconsider buying it if someone else in your team got it, because it then may not be worth it. The second highest MR item is spirit visage with 50MR and then you have to consider if you can make a good use of the Passive, which not everyone can use. It wouldnt be so bad if big MR items didnt get nerfed twice as much as Magic Pen. There are also less options for "premium" MR items.

Meanwhile, armor doesnt suffer from horrible values on items, but it suffers from 35% + 25% + 8% ArP, this doesnt stack additively, but it still is a ton of armor ignored. Even then, the ADC only needs to buy LW and get the mastery, BC can be bought from someone else on his team. It feels like you can get a decent amount of armor, but it truly is reduced to the current levels of MR.

Now you might think, health is the solution then! Not against everyone, anyone that deal % of your HP is just laughing as you have no real way to defend yourself.

Welcome to the League of Damage. -_-


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

12-15-2012

Now, I could write a sarcastic and snarky post about this, but instead I'll explain my exact feelings.

Yes, they've nerfed defense overall. Item defense is now bypassed by item offense designed to counter defense (in the example of pen+shred effects, the target's armor is effectively 45% not including alternate pen/shred sources). You cannot just stack Armor to defeat physical damage, or MR to defeat magic damage any more. Now you need a balance of those stats and HP, and you also need to know whether you should build offense items or defense items depending on the situation and your champion.

It also brings to light another segment of the game, defensive utility stats. Things like Frozen Heart's AS slow (which is literally unmitigatable), Ninja Tabi's 10% reduction of auto attack damage, and CC reduction so you can continue dealing damage in return, are now more necessary than they used to be.

We already know the preseason patch "broke" the game. That was the entire point of the preseason; break and redesign the game. They've done it 3 times in a row, not to mention they do it every time (on a smaller scale) when they rework champions. It's difficult to deal with, but you gotta learn to live with it and roll with the changes.


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67chrome

Senior Member

12-15-2012

1) Spirit Visage's healing effects applies to everything that restores health (outside of actually increasing your maximum health). So 20% more healing is 20% more regeneration, life steal, spell vamp, healing from potions, Baron's Buff, Health Relics, and so on in addition to healing offered from abilities. Which basically means everyone can use it. For a tank just think of it as a multiplicative bonus to your health regeneration.

2) Armor doesn't suffer from low values as much as magic resistance because of how physical damage is typically built. Physical damage scales exponentially throughout a game, were it becomes Attack Damage * Attack Speed * Critical Strike Chance and Damage. %Armor Penetration, Flat Armor Penetration, and Cooldown reduction also help - though to a lesser extent.

Abilities don't scale that way - they're pretty much set on a linear scale, were Ability Power is more or less it (Though % Magic Penetration, Flat Magic Penetration, and Cooldown reduction help).

The problem there is that magic damage can be countered by 2 attributes - magic resistance and health, so you can stack defenses against it faster than you can build damage. At least if you get items that mostly consist of health and MR, which is were limiting being able to optimize such builds allows Spell penetration to act more similarly to MR in terms of countering defenses or offenses.

3) Very few casters deal %Health damage - and even the ones that do typically have a lot of flat damage in their kit (which is countered by health). Same deal with %HP shred on items: It's mostly applied on flat damages, so they can never make health stacking obsolete. Best case scenario it offers as much of an offensive boost against stacking health as magic penetration can offer against stacking magic resistance.


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Minute 31

Senior Member

12-15-2012

Currently, it isn't uncommon to see 68% armor penetration by 20-30 minutes into a game. I'm sure part of it has to do with ambient gold generation, but I would like to draw attention back the the Black Cleaver.

As it stands there are no real counters to it, it is a bruiser's godsend and, despite it being the first item of many top and some mid lanes, it remains effective all throughout the game. The base stats are still great early game, though there isn't as much reason to stack them anymore. Health, cool down reduction, damage, and a ton of armor penetration make it both really strong early game and late game to the point where armor as a stat has been devalued.

I'm sure the point has been raised multiple times, but having an item with such powerful early game stats and a percentage based armor penetration that only needs 4 stacks which can be applied relatively instantly by most can not be balanced. Most melee AD champs I've seen forgo building any real amount of damage in favor of armor pen.


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Yearx

Junior Member

12-15-2012

No conozco mucho del juego todavía como para dar una opinión objetiva, pero voy a intentarlo, creo que las mejoras en general son buenas y los cambios sirven para dar una dinámica y cambiante al juego (hacerlo un juego nuevo con cada pache) pero estoy en desacuerdo con sacar items que dan resistencia mágica, el item que mas resistencia mágica da en el juego es de 50 puntos, aparte de ser muy caro, no es compatible con otros items de defensa. Creo que es necesario algún item como force of nature que da defensa mágica. Gracias por otorgar la oportunidad de dar nuestras sugerencias.


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Yuan Shikai

Senior Member

12-16-2012

What you described is the exact POINT of the patch.

MR got nerfed because AP damage foten fell off lategame unless the ap carry was heavily fed and armor was nerfed cause many champs who weren't even tanks could build a bit tanky and sitll take vast amounts of damage while some tanks like Singed, Rammus and Malphite were nigh-unkillable, even when focussed by 3 people which Riot did not like either.


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Autocthon

Senior Member

12-16-2012

Tanks can build the following items with MR on them...

Bulwark (60, best defensive item in game by far core on every tank)
Merc's (25)
GA (20, great item for surviving burst damage)
Abyssal Sceptre (~50 Tanks benefit form the AP, team benefits from the aura, great item on any tank)
Spirit Visage (50 multiplies healing effects, has HP+MR)
Banshee's Veil (45 Great choice)
Total +245MR

If a player wished they could build ALL 6 of those MR items, granting nearly 300 MR, and nearly 1000 bonus HP.

With only +MR/lvl runes, GA+Merc's+Bulwark most tanks will achieve 200 Armor and 180 MR by level 18. Just GA+Bulwark alone provides 80 bonus MR. If you need more than 180 MR then you are in one of a few situations:

1) The entire enemy team is pure magic damage
2) The enemy team has significant magic damage and full builds
3) You didn't build enough HP

Mages are shut down by HP+MR together, not just MR. Because their damage scales linearly, whereas eHP scales multiplicatively. Building *only* Bulwark and Spirit Visage should be enough to grant near immunity to enemy APs in any game where the enemy AP did not get brokenly fed. If you need more insurance it will generally be far more effective to stack HP than to stack MR against APs.

And we come to the whole misunderstanding about MR. There is not a lack of MR in the game, there are a lack of players who know how to effectively defend against mages and think that they need more MR past ~150-200, when at that point they should be focused on gaining HP.