Why Black Cleaver Should NOT be Nerfed

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PussPounder Esq

Member

12-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razer013 View Post
Ok - So first of all, I do play top - but with an ad melee assasin _Zed_. During early game - its hard to tear through some of the armor of most tops - especially like garen and darius, their sustain is great. Only late game can a person like me do a **** load of dmg. Whats my first item?, always black cleaver - simply because it allows me to shred some of that god awful armor off a champ whos STACKING warmogs or other armor items. So to keep things balanced, if a champ builds armor what are you supposed to do? Exactly build some Armor PEN. BC is a great item - the only thing that might need to be changed is the stacking part - but if thats the case you shouldnt be allowed to stack the same type of armor items either ( to be fair).
If I might.

For 1 there are natural chamion counters based on kit skill alone. For instance Irelia beats olaf. Olaf needs to be levels and thousands of gold ahead to effectively commit to a full fight against Irelia.

2. Let me tell you why the black cleaver is broken as ****. Yes it's a great item if you build one. 30% armor shred 20 armor pen some health and 10% cdr. Core ideals on on an AD caster/assassin. That's not broken. What is broken is the black cleaver is not a unique passive.

What does that mean you might ask. Well it means if you have a black cleaver, you apply up to 4 stacks taking 30% of your enemies armor+ 20 armor pen after that fact. If you have 2 black cleavers. Each one of them can stack up to 4 times. For a total of 2x30% armor shred+ 40 armor pen even more hp and 20% CDR. While the health and armor pen are nice losing 60% of your armor pretty ****ing much hurts bad. So between masteries ( 6|8% penetration) You then add in 40 pen and 60% armor shred.

So then you have say an amumu with 200 armor. You penetrate 8% of that, or 16 armor. THEN you shred 60% of that remaining armor. So 182*.6 so you shred 109.2 armor. You're down to 72.8 armor. Then you have 45 armor pen (what flat apen caps at I do believe) You are left with 27 armor. You're a tank and an initiator and you essentially have 27 armor. Tell me how you're going to tank with 27 armor. Mind you that is a build you can achieve with about 8k gold (maybe 22-25 mins of play)

Wanna take a gander at what happens with 3 Cleavers? 90% shred 8% pen and 45 flat pen. You push people into the negatives.


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Beaumains

Senior Member

12-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by BerserkRequiem View Post
. . . What does that mean you might ask. Well it means if you have a black cleaver, you apply up to 4 stacks taking 30% of your enemies armor+ 20 armor pen after that fact. If you have 2 black cleavers. Each one of them can stack up to 4 times. For a total of 2x30% armor shred+ 40 armor pen even more hp and 20% CDR. While the health and armor pen are nice losing 60% of your armor pretty ****ing much hurts bad. So between masteries ( 6|8% penetration) You then add in 40 pen and 60% armor shred. . . . Wanna take a gander at what happens with 3 Cleavers? 90% shred 8% pen and 45 flat pen. You push people into the negatives.
First, no; you don't get 60% armor shred with 2 cleavers, you get the same 30% shred as with one, but you get there twice as fast; that's all - and you get double the flat pen. The tip on BC specifically states that the shred maxes out at 30%, this is the same terminology as before with max stacks, it's the same as other items & passives that have "max" stacks.

So your example with 200 AR mumu sees you getting through 100 armor with 2 cleavers and no runes or masteries. 4 Cleavers will get you through 140 armor leaving 60, if you have no masteries. If Amumu foregoes that 100 armor item, or just makes it an Omen, you still have to deal with his 3000 hit points; 4000 if he gets a Warmogs; 5000 if he gets 2 - they're much cheaper than cleavers. What good is 300 AD and 30% +80 arpen against that? (while he's eating away 10% of everyone's health every second [all damage included]?) Note that your carry only gets the 30% shred, still having to deal with 140 of the rest of Amumu's armor, and 5000 hit points (effective 12k).

EDIT: Finally, no, penetration doesn't reduce armor, so even if 3 cleavers gave you 90%, and that 90% stacked additively (it stacks multaplicitavely) with the 8%, that still only would reduce 90%, the pen meaning you (and only you) would get up to 100% arpen. If you had 4 cleavers and these were true, you'd only shred 100% armor, because % shred can't reduce armor below 0 - you'd need flat shred to do that, and there are only ~ 5 champs out of 100+ who can do that. However, 1) cleavers max out at 30%, 2) % shred and pen stack multaplicatively, so 35% pen from LW, and 8% pen from masteries, is equal to 1 - (.65 x .92) = 40% pen, not 43% pen. If cleavers stacked that would be 1 - (.7 x .7 x .7 x .7) = 76% shred, not 120% => 100%. Combined with even the 40% pen above would be 85.5% effective pen (and that only for you). By the way, % pen & shred scale multiplicatively because % pen goes off of what's left, not what was originally there.


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Resurgam

Member

12-13-2012

Ok -The BC haters make it sound like a tank is just gonna stand there and get attaked - no - cc tanks like amumu and alli have a chance to stun - or to allow some dmg to be done by thier team adcs - BC doesnt make the champ invincible, it just gives them an edge much needed to take down heavy tanks like the ones metioned above. The same way you can stag mogs or other armor items you should be able to stack armor pen. And if you just running up to an adc knowing that hell shred the **** out of you, well then your not playing as smart as you should be.


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