Why Black Cleaver Should NOT be Nerfed

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Resurgam

Member

12-12-2012

Ok - So first of all, I do play top - but with an ad melee assasin _Zed_. During early game - its hard to tear through some of the armor of most tops - especially like garen and darius, their sustain is great. Only late game can a person like me do a **** load of dmg. Whats my first item?, always black cleaver - simply because it allows me to shred some of that god awful armor off a champ whos STACKING warmogs or other armor items. So to keep things balanced, if a champ builds armor what are you supposed to do? Exactly build some Armor PEN. BC is a great item - the only thing that might need to be changed is the stacking part - but if thats the case you shouldnt be allowed to stack the same type of armor items either ( to be fair).


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Ariana Grande

Member

12-12-2012

First of all play a better Melee Assassin then Zed, he sucks. Second Black Cleaver is too toxic for the meta, you can go a team of 4 black cleaver champions and a support with zekes and the enemy team can do absolutely nothing about it. If the enemy team builds armor they wasted money because it will become 0 at the start of a teamfight, if they build health they will be doing no damage and their itemization will be very bad. Three, Darius has no sustain you obviously have 200 wins and should leave the forums.


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Resurgam

Member

12-12-2012

No - Zed does not suck - that is a matter of opinion. I have had teams where the adc went BC as well as me - and while we did destroy, the enemy team had no real dmg to counter. And since in league one of your goals is to gather better items that your opponent, then it should be clear on how to counteract BC. From what ive heard, ppl stacking BC's are almost invincible ( there not ). My only problem is nerfing the item - making it with a unique passive is a good option however. And no - i have more than 200 wins.


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OIC Valkyrie

Senior Member

12-12-2012

Razer is somewhat right. First Zed takes skill to use he doesn't suck, if you think he sucks you probably went 1/15/2 with first game Zed. Second if black clever is so overpowered then if everyone in the game gets it nothing happens. I've been on a 15 winning streak as Lablanc and maybe saw 3 BC but it doesn't matter 1v1 a Lablanc and u lost. Thirdly instead of nerfing BC i think they should make a item that counters that type of armor pen. but its only for true tanks. (Like the hurricane is only for ranged.) That way BC can still mow down offtank carries like Garen, Darius,and Sion, who most likely would also have a BC to mow you down.


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Nykidemus

Senior Member

12-12-2012

Gonna have to agree. Prior to S3 changes I almost always rushed a Chain Vest for my top lane - as it was pretty much the counter to everyone up there.

Now that may or may not be the best buy. You can get it before your opponent can get a cleaver - or if they build armor, you can build a cleaver. It encourages actually paying attention to what your opponent has, and counterbuilding. I approve.


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xxHunterKillerxx

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Junior Member

12-12-2012

In my opinion they should make the increases of the black cleaver such as cdr etc, all apart from health and damage unique. That would prevent the stacking. Sure nerf the passive a bit, but melee assasians were being countered hard by bruisers and had few items that both increased their durability and damage etc. But the stack 4 BC's to win idea is stupid, so make it unworthwhile to stack this many and people wont do it.


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Scarlet Ambition

Senior Member

12-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by xxHunterKillerxx View Post
In my opinion they should make the increases of the black cleaver such as cdr etc, all apart from health and damage unique. That would prevent the stacking. Sure nerf the passive a bit, but melee assasians were being countered hard by bruisers and had few items that both increased their durability and damage etc. But the stack 4 BC's to win idea is stupid, so make it unworthwhile to stack this many and people wont do it.
Dude I just got out of a match right now and lost to a garen with 3 black cleavers......he basically soloed all of my team with jarvan, darius, hermmi, taric, and graves....
WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU?!?!


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Beaumains

Senior Member

12-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonic Pride View Post
Razer is somewhat right. . . . . Thirdly instead of nerfing BC i think they should make a item that counters that type of armor pen. . . . .
This item already exists: Warmogs. 1 warmogs is better than 4 black cleavers, and costs less than one of them. That leaves a tank plenty of space to build even 3 armor items that will counter a carry stacking flat damage, it also leaves a space or two for getting MR, or they can get some damage, and of course boots. But there's also a lot of cross over between offense and defense in the items (e.g. Iceborn Gauntlet, Abyssal Scepter, Sunfire Cape). If 1 warmogs isn't enough, add another, or an Omen (gives 500 hp + armor). Or just stack Mogs. 300 AD is pretty worthless when the tank has a literal 7000 hp. (That's ~25 attacks & spells without armor). Also note that Liandry's doesn't count as a %hp item, as few casters can get a full 10% out of it; meanwhile, most tanks can ruin the mage's day.


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TealNinje

Senior Member

12-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluescarla View Post
Dude I just got out of a match right now and lost to a garen with 3 black cleavers......he basically soloed all of my team with jarvan, darius, hermmi, taric, and graves....
WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU?!?!
That your Jarvan, Darius, Heimerdinger, Taric and Graves were awful.


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TheLastBaron88

Senior Member

12-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TealNinje View Post
That your Jarvan, Darius, Heimerdinger, Taric and Graves were awful.
lol. If anything, I would suggest not allowing Cleavers to stack. Brutalizers don't stack (or didn't, as far as I am aware), so why should the item they build into? Isn't that why Passives have Unique Names now? Flat Magic Pen items like Sorc Shoes and Haunting Guise/Liandra's Torment don't stack with themselves (or with earlier components of their build for that matter), so why should this be different for AD items, when Attack Damage has better scaling than AP already? Fixed.


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