@Xypherous S3 Lichbane discussion.

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Sagee Prime

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Senior Member

12-06-2012

First I would like to say that I love that some issues with lichbane were solved and it was made somewhat cheaper with the removal of certain stats but overall I don't like what it has become.




1)____________________________
I'll go over some of the issues first:

Quote:
OLD Issues:
*High cost
*Relatively hard to make optimum use on most AP carries (since most wish to be at a safe range and lichbane doesn't always allow that).
*Lots of stats = extra cost.
*deals magic or physical damage depending on if basic attacks were normal or modified with magic damage(Siphoning Strike, Devastating Blow, and Pick a Card).

Old Benefits:
*Did physical damage most of the time giving an alternate form of damage against people stacking MR and it scaled with lifesteal.
*Offensive item with defensive stats

New Issues:
*thematic stat lost(Magic resist)
*Lower damage after 200 AP
*loss of physical damage(yes it is a con if you were a mixed damage champion that might get lifesteal like akali)
*Doesn't heal user from lifesteal or spellvamp when it used to heal from lifesteal.
*Still really doesn't have a big place in item builds.

New Benefits:
*Damage scales with magic pen. and AP instead of armor pen and AP.
*Base damage



2)___________________________(Skip to 3 if you just want to see some different ideas for lichbane)

Now while the old issues are gone is there any real reason to actually call it lichbane anymore? I guess it doesn't really matter anymore sense it is your game after all.
One thing I would like to point out is that lichbane was generally picked on melee AP carries/assassins and on hybrid damage dealers. Since that passive would deal physical damage it would proc lifesteal. The ability to proc lifesteal with lichbane has been lost and spellvamp doesn't proc on auto attacks and lifesteal doesn't proc on magic damage.

This really makes me think the rules for lifesteal and spellvamp need to be changed especially after some of the nerfs to lifesteal.

Currently lifesteal only works on physical damage dealt by auto attacks and it doesn't count magic or true damage. Spellvamp counts all spell damage regardless of the damage type.

Either make lifesteal apply to physical damage and spellvamp magic damage instead or allow lifesteal to proc off magic and true damage dealt by basic attacks too.

If lifesteal worked with all physical damage then there could be a simple rule put in just like with spellvamp where lifesteal doesn't heal for its full amount on AOE. This would eliminate the need for spellvamp AD caster items.


Either way is w/e. I'm done talking about lifesteal and spellvamp lets talk about some ideas I would like to share for lichbane.




3)__________________________________
So basically there is this really cool and neat looking item that got removed and I don't really think it fit where it was put originally. The item I am referring to is Moonflair Spellblade. I would like to see it reused as a component of Lichbane and make lichbane more appealing for a variety of champions.

First off My first idea:

Quote:
Moonflair Spellblade:

Sheen + Ability Tome

60 AP

250 Mana

Unique – Spellblade: After using an ability, your next basic attack deals bonus damage equal to 45% of your ability power. 2 second cooldown.

Unique – Spell Sword: Your basic attacks deals bonus damage equal to 15% of your ability power.
So basically we have lowered the cost further and removed the 50 base damage since we now have spell sword passive that gives 25% of our ap as actual damage on basic attacks and we are going to upgrade it further later.


Quote:
Lichbane:

Moonflair Spellblade + Ability Tome + Null-Magic-Mantel

80 AP

250 Mana

25 Magic Resist

5% Movement Speed

Unique – Spellblade: After using an ability, your next basic attack deals bonus damage equal to 60% of your ability power. 2 second cooldown.

Unique – Spell Sword: Your basic attacks deal bonus damage equal to 20% of your ability power.
This is my first incarnation and while both my incarnations result in the same lichbane its that path to getting lichbane that changes and opens up different possibilities. This lichbane is basically tailored to work with both AP casters that would try to utilize it and sustained AP damage damage dealers like teemo(I hate him but its k) and even AP Nidalee. AP champions that auto attack allot would favor this item allot more.

This is my second and favorite idea:

Quote:
Moonflair Spellblade:

Null-Magic Mantle + Blasting Wand

50 AP

20 Magic Resist

Unique – Spell Sword: Your basic attacks deal bonus damage equal to 15% of your ability power.
This is a reinvented Moonflair again but it comes with descent benefits for a champions that might want to auto attack and stack allot of AP too like Diana, Teemo, Nidalee, and maybe even Orianna and Lux. Additionally this item is in perfect condition to be included as a component for other new items.

EDIT: There is a toggle on it for you to select the damage type. This allows champions that really want magic damage for things like magic pen to take full effect or for hybrid/physical damage champions that may have lifesteal or armor pen to get full effect. Think of an akali with gunblade and lichbane for instance. Magic damage doesn't work with lifesteal and lichbane procs counts as auto attack damage so they don't work with spellvamp either.

Quote:
Lichbane:

Moonflair Spellblade + Sheen

80 AP

250 Mana

25 Magic Resist

5% Movement Speed

Unique – Spellblade: After using an ability, your next basic attack deals bonus damage equal to 60% of your ability power. 2 second cooldown.

Unique – Spell Sword: Your basic attacks deal bonus damage equal to 20% of your ability power.
Different Journey but same destination this lichbane is what I would like to see in the game.
________________________________

I'm sure this may not be taken very well among everyone but I would still like to know your thoughts on my idea.

- Sagee Prime



TL;DR: I want to bring Moonflair Spellblade back as a component of Lichbane and make lichbane more appealing for a variety of champions while maintaining some of its old values like anti-lich stats that match its thematics. Finally I want lichbane procs to retain their original damage type determination method. If your basic attacks are dealing greater magic damage the proc is magic damage but if your attacks are greater physical damage then the damage is physical. This way it retains ifs interaction with lifesteal.


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IonDragonX

Senior Member

12-06-2012

I approve of the second version.
However, another 100 AP item is probably a bad idea.
Better bring the Moonflair Spellblade down to 50 AP and let the Lich Bane be 80 AP.
The on every hit effect is probably too strong. Teemo and Varus would have a field day with this plus Malady and Hurricane.


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Beaumains

Senior Member

12-06-2012

Also note: Malady now deals 10% of your AP as bonus magic damage; combining that with Lichbane (as I guarantee you Kassadin will do, plus his W which adds another 15% of his AP as bonus damage, that's 50% of his AP, which could easily be 400+ => 200+ bonus magic damage per hit, at 5 attacks every 2s; that's 500 bonus dps, whereas now it's only 250).


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Dzanio

Senior Member

12-07-2012

I agree that the stats seem a little too high, maybe make the moonflair similar to sheen, but with 50-75% AP scaling on hit instead of the bonus AD, and a slight AP buff in the realm of 35-50 AP. Then having it build into something better. The MR idea is nice, since flat pen is even more popular after the rework going into season 3.

On a related note, I think your idea for the items are balanced for the sort of flat MR pen assassin champ which is really popular right now (since they have little AP, the 100 AP item would be nice), but Beaumains and IonDragon bring up a good point about the effect this would have on Teemo and other on hit champs who build a lot of AP anyway, and for whom lichbane is currently designed to work.

Why they haven't made Life Steal and Spell vamp intuitive yet idk, but there should be a separate post about that because it's a big issue.


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Autocthon

Senior Member

12-07-2012

25% AP as damage on all attacks is probably broken.


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Sagee Prime

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Senior Member

12-07-2012

Its the idea that matters most but I can see where you guys are coming from. Noticed how I mentioned Teemo(yeah screw teemo) and I personally think temos AP scaling is too strong especially on toxic shot.

Just think of the stats as place holders for now.

My main idea is I want Moonflair to be a persistent %of ap as magic damage on auto attacks and that I want moonflair to be a recipe for Lichbane with a combination of persistent magic damage on basic attacks and big bursts based on spell procs.

I went ahead and modified the amounts.


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Autocthon

Senior Member

12-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagee Prime View Post
Its the idea that matters most but I can see where you guys are coming from. Noticed how I mentioned Teemo(yeah screw teemo)

Just think of the stats as place holders for now.

My main idea is I want Moonflair to be a %of ap as magic damage on auto attacks and that I want moonflair to be a recipe for Lichbane with a combination of magic damage on basic attacks and spell procs.
I'd still leave out the MR, unless it was part of spellblade.

eg

Moonflair Spellblade
Null Magic Mantle + Blasting Wand + 300 Gold (~1500 gold)
+50 AP
+20 MR
Unique Passive - Mageblade - Your attacks deal 10+10% of your AP as magic damage.

Lichbane
Moonflair Spellblade + Sheen + 600 Gold (roughly 3200 gold)
+90 AP
+25 MR
+250 Mana
Unique Passive - Spellblade - Whenever you use an ability your next attack deals 50% of your AP as magic damage. 2 second cooldown.
Unique Passive - Mageblade - Your attacks deal 30+15% of your AP as magic damage.

Note: Malady on hit would be given the mageblade keyword to prevent certain abuse cases.


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Sagee Prime

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Senior Member

12-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Autocthon View Post
I'd still leave out the MR, unless it was part of spellblade.

eg

Moonflair Spellblade
Null Magic Mantle + Blasting Wand + 300 Gold (~1500 gold)
+50 AP
+20 MR
Unique Passive - Mageblade - Your attacks deal 10+10% of your AP as magic damage.

Lichbane
Moonflair Spellblade + Sheen + 600 Gold (roughly 3200 gold)
+90 AP
+25 MR
+250 Mana
Unique Passive - Spellblade - Whenever you use an ability your next attack deals 50% of your AP as magic damage. 2 second cooldown.
Unique Passive - Mageblade - Your attacks deal 30+15% of your AP as magic damage.

Note: Malady on hit would be given the mageblade keyword to prevent certain abuse cases.

I called it spell sword because of the mastery and also it doesn't need base damage in my form since it has a persistent effect and the item itself gives AP.


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Alabugin

Member

12-08-2012

As a main akali player, I realized a BIG HUGE HIT in teamfight survivability without that lifesteal proc. Solution? I now go trinity force...its less optimal, but its working so far. Its also nicer in a way since it gives some health - and now my autoattacks slow, so I dont get rylais (instead I am building haunting guise and TF which gives me the same health I saw in s2 from rylais). I am now considering putting some AR Pen in the skilltree though to give a little more omph with physical damage proc = more lifesteal anyway.

The critical strikes are very nice too. And combined with the single target speed boost for boots "rune" and the slow, nobody, ever ever gets away from you.


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Sagee Prime

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Senior Member

12-10-2012

I updated the OP to reflect another idea that recently crossed my mind. Since sheen and its related items don't have any active effects lets give them a toggle. The toggle will be for one thing only and that is toggling the damage type between physical damage and magic damage. This seems like the best solution for champions that would typically prefer the procs from lichbane be physical damage instead of magic damage.


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