Why tribunal is extremely biased against reported players. Please review my case.

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A Sleepy Tony

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Junior Member

12-10-2012

I have been unjustly banned by tribunal several times already due to the flaws in the system design, and I have outlined them below along with suggested fixes. IMO, tribunal is an extremely flawed system that is highly biased towards the individuals that report, and the "trial" conducted by tribunal to decide whether to punish or not is very unfair.

DISCLAIMER: I AM A HUMAN BEING (LIKE ALL OF US HOPEFULLY) AND I *DO* OCCASIONALLY MAKE MISTAKES. HOWEVER IMO, MINOR OFFENSES SUCH AS LIGHT SARCASTIC HUMOR SHOULD NOT COUNT AGAINST YOU SO HEAVILY. ex: full 7 day ban for a single sarcastic comment out of 200+ games played.

Please show proper respect and only comment if you believe that you can constructively contribute to the thread.

Problem in tribunal:
-The highlighted blue text of tribunal chat is extremely misleading, as it encourages voters to skim only over the highlighted text and thus fail to obtain context of chat, impeding their ability to make fair judgments.
-Many tribunal voters tend to not put enough (or any) thought into voting, and just read very little before making a uninformed decision to punish/pardon.
Example: extreme racism pardoned by a MAJORITY: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribun.../6029802/#nogo (game 2 Olaf)

Example: buying no items and feeding but no chat abuse pardoned by a MAJORITY:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribun.../6023163/#nogo

Effects caused by problem:

-Many legitimate players are punished wrongly by the system
-Some extreme offenders of the system are set free even though they very obviously committed a crime.

Fix(es) to problem:
-Allow players to defend themselves before the jury of players that decide whether to punish or pardon them. (most recommended as it resembles real world judicial systems that allow defendants to defend themselves against accusations, *right to a fair trial*)
-Increase amount of minimum time required spent on tribunal cases by voters (unlikely to work as voters will just "alt-tab" to another window and come back to "instant-punish")

Now for my tribunal case:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribunal/en/case/6003653/
-In each game I was only reported by a single player, and after reading the context of the chat in each game, one can easily tell which player did the reporting.
Game 1:
-Shyvana disconnects periodically during the game, and both teams are joking around about it instead of raging.
-After coming mid against their Anivia, who has been joking around with me the entire game and diving the tower for her, she proceeds to call an "RIP" on me (in a humorous fashion) and when I do not die, I reply with a humorous "jk ez". Essentially, the entire chat comprises of my *harmless* jokes towards Anivia which she also finds funny (quote: "lololol", "I'm gonna call my mom (sarcasm)", "[my mom] 5v1 beating alex ich's all day")
-In the end, I was reported by the raging Shyvana due to her disconnect, and due to the superficial nature of tribunal voters, I ended up probably looking like a total ******* even though anyone that actually read the case would realize that it was all good with everyone other than Shyvana, and no offensive language actually occurred.
-The only offensive thing occuring here was "honor shyv free game" by me, which was obviously wrong, but that was an outburst coming from me due to the excessive flaming done by Shyvana, (quote: "LEE **** YOU *******", "nah you guys are *******s that's all", "shyvana > graves") I can admit fault for this sarcastic comment that pales in comparision to her comments.

Game 2:
-NOTE: IRELIA RAN AP RUNES IN A RANKED GAME INTENTIONALLY* (1700+ elo)
-Irelia and TF bashing each other all game, along with Irelia initiating flaming with the opponent top laner.
-After the game starts with a flurry of yellow pings by a teammate, game begins with me asking for an invade while having a positive outlook even though Irelia has AP runes
-Commenting on the fact that Irelia isn't sorry about picking AP runes in a ranked game by asking her to "learn runes and masteries and pay attention in a ranked game" after numerous repeated *avoidable mistakes*
-Still maintains a positive outlook on the game by telling team to "w/e just play the game, we'll be fine"
-Asks for reports on TF and Irelia for verbal abuse/flaming/refusing to cooperate at the absolute end of the game
~Irelia verbally bashes teammates all game while failing to concentrate on the game and made the mistake of picking AP runes.
Examples:
- condescending on opponents "did you honestly just build Ninja Tabi against an Irelia with 30 AP?
-flame war with tf "[after dying top] thanks mid not like I was top for 4 ****ing minutes with you guys 2 ****ing seconds away needing help", "don't ****ing teach me how to play, I'm better than you'll ever be", "(after being called out for picking AP runes) you don't know ****ing **** about ****ing irelia" "you think AD runes will ****ing help for ****?" "MY ****ING ARMOR RUNES YOU DUMB ****ING ****HEAD", "you dumb**** I'm playing against ****ing riven", etc...
-raging at the poor flow of the game: "I didn't ****ing need any ****ing help 1v****ing 3 all ****ing day" "you blind mother****ers", "I did pick the right ****ing runes (lol.)", "report tf and noc and graves (response from other team: "so the entire team?")
~TF also verbally bashed everyone during the game while flaming against Irelia all game.
-flame war with irelia: "so this is how team fights are going to go, not being about to dodge spears?", "that's just ****ing great", "(when Irelia was off solofarming) what the **** are you ****ing doing",
-raging at the poor flow of the game: "**** this gay game", "nid is so ****ing farmed now, yes I can ****ing see", "don't worry about the ****ing poompatrt(sic)??? guys, ****"
> In this game, the only mistake I made was a condescending comment about Irelia smoking too much weed.

Game 3:
-Teemo is trolling by doing jungle solo wraiths and taking it from maokai
-Sona who has been raging since champ select intentionally abandons me at bot to roam and doens't ward
-I start getting fed and begin to carry the team along with cassiopeia
-Maokai building terrible items and playing terribly while refusing to listen to advice, (he realizes this: "im sorry guys i told you i couldn't jungle"
-Cassiopeia very obviously assisting enemy team by allowing me to be picked off every single fight intentionally, ("I didn't wanna save you", "(after being called out for griefing) I just don't like you, it's okay"
-I was rather vocal during this game by pointing out problems while being slightly agigated, but no verbal abuse or offensive langauge

Game 4: (1700+ elo game)
-Playing entire game with positive attitude save for a few parts where Orianna very obviously was not taking the game seriously (admitted: "its k first game ori. didnt even know this account had her", "zz phone degays i had call for like past 4 min"
-Malphite flaming the entire team sparked defensive remarks from myself: "you guys gotta be kidding me really bad", "ezreal you suck, this ezreal jesus", "stfu you loseing(sic) lane, see? ezreal you really suck"
-At the end of the game I asked players to report malphite for verbal abuse, and he sent in a report on me

Game 5:
-This game I was duo queuing with my friend in MID and was being invaded all over my jungle
-Maintaining positive attitude and giving positive reinforcement to teammates until irelia raging at me for failing a gank in her lane (with no negative repurcussions to her though)
-Defending myself against an onslaught of insults by irelia: "you haven't dont **** this entire game, bad junglers make the best excuses"
-Irelia essentially quitting the game even though there was a chance of winning: "I don't feel like playing, trying, don't even want to try" "you guys don't deserve it" while flaming the team by calling us "**** elo child"
-Ezreal flaming me all game because I didn't gank bot as it was very warded. Admits to "*****ing at [alistar]"
-Report sent in by Irelia who quit playing in the middle of the game, yet calls everyone else children. The description in the report perfectly matches her attitude treating all teammates as children.

I know I wasn't exactly an angel, but my response wasn't at all unreasonable for most of the time and I believe that in these situations, Riot shouldn't punish players for defending themselves in chat if they follow the summoner's code.


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LittleDi

Senior Member

12-10-2012

Welcome to flaming rant, please take your fire resistant coat and gloves before responding.


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Shiister

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Senior Member

12-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony06112 View Post
I have been unjustly banned by tribunal several times already due to the flaws in the system design, and I have outlined them below along with suggested fixes. IMO, tribunal is an extremely flawed system that is highly biased towards the individuals that report, and the "trial" conducted by tribunal to decide whether to punish or not is very unfair.

Tribunal is bias against the reported player? No, its the same as if you was in US courts, the court is reviewing your behavior so your crimes which you committed are on review, Tribunal just highlight your chat to make it easier to read for us.


Quote:
DISCLAIMER: I AM A HUMAN BEING (LIKE ALL OF US HOPEFULLY) AND I *DO* OCCASIONALLY MAKE MISTAKES. HOWEVER IMO, MINOR OFFENSES SUCH AS LIGHT SARCASTIC HUMOR SHOULD NOT COUNT AGAINST YOU SO HEAVILY. ex: full 7 day ban for a single sarcastic comment out of 200+ games played.
You don't get in Tribunal for 1 game. You have to have a history of behavior which violates the Summoner Code for a Tribunal case to be even made against you.



Quote:
Problem in tribunal:
-The highlighted blue text of tribunal chat is extremely misleading, as it encourages voters to skim only over the highlighted text and thus fail to obtain context of chat, impeding their ability to make fair judgments.
Good point, but I'm sure most Tribunal-goers read the entire chat for the context.

Quote:
-Many tribunal voters tend to not put enough (or any) thought into voting, and just read very little before making a uninformed decision to punish/pardon.
This is the same as your 1st problem.

Quote:
Example: extreme racism pardoned by a MAJORITY: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribun.../6029802/#nogo (game 2 Olaf)

Example: buying no items and feeding but no chat abuse pardoned by a MAJORITY:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribun.../6023163/#nogo
Those are just lucky/false pardons. It is believed there is a group of trolls just going in Tribunal and clicking pardon to get people off, who knows? *shrugs*

Quote:
Effects caused by problem:

-Many legitimate players are punished wrongly by the system
Care to elaborate on "many", I hardly seen many players wrongly punished.

Quote:
-Some extreme offenders of the system are set free even though they very obviously committed a crime.
People get lucky. Same as in real life, but if they have that kind of behavior which got them in the Tribunal in the first place they be back.

Quote:
Fix(es) to problem:
-Allow players to defend themselves before the jury of players that decide whether to punish or pardon them. (most recommended as it resembles real world judicial systems that allow defendants to defend themselves against accusations, *right to a fair trial*)
Your actions in game defend yourself.

You have chances to ignore people who are harassing you before deciding to sink to their level.

You can choose to be helpful to someone instead of insulting them.



Quote:
-Increase amount of minimum time required spent on tribunal cases by voters (unlikely to work as voters will just "alt-tab" to another window and come back to "instant-punish")
The time use to be 60 seconds and people make this claim, now it 20 seconds and people making this claim still. What time is "enough" for you to think people won't insta-punish?

Quote:
Now for my tribunal case:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribunal/en/case/6003653/
-In each game I was only reported by a single player, and after reading the context of the chat in each game, one can easily tell which player did the reporting.
Game 1:
-Shyvana disconnects periodically during the game, and both teams are joking around about it instead of raging.
-After coming mid against their Anivia, who has been joking around with me the entire game and diving the tower for her, she proceeds to call an "RIP" on me (in a humorous fashion) and when I do not die, I reply with a humorous "jk ez". Essentially, the entire chat comprises of my *harmless* jokes towards Anivia which she also finds funny (quote: "lololol", "I'm gonna call my mom (sarcasm)", "[my mom] 5v1 beating alex ich's all day")
-In the end, I was reported by the raging Shyvana due to her disconnect, and due to the superficial nature of tribunal voters, I ended up probably looking like a total ******* even though anyone that actually read the case would realize that it was all good with everyone other than Shyvana, and no offensive language actually occurred.
-The only offensive thing occuring here was "honor shyv free game" by me, which was obviously wrong, but that was an outburst coming from me due to the excessive flaming done by Shyvana, (quote: "LEE **** YOU *******", "nah you guys are *******s that's all", "shyvana > graves") I can admit fault for this sarcastic comment that pales in comparision to her comments.
You asked enemy to report Kat,why? She didn't seem to be doing anything wrong.

Nothing wasn't punishable in this game really, but some of your "jokes" was borderline. I wouldn't punish for this game.

Quote:
Game 2:
-NOTE: IRELIA RAN AP RUNES IN A RANKED GAME INTENTIONALLY* (1700+ elo)
-Irelia and TF bashing each other all game, along with Irelia initiating flaming with the opponent top laner.
-After the game starts with a flurry of yellow pings by a teammate, game begins with me asking for an invade while having a positive outlook even though Irelia has AP runes
-Commenting on the fact that Irelia isn't sorry about picking AP runes in a ranked game by asking her to "learn runes and masteries and pay attention in a ranked game" after numerous repeated *avoidable mistakes*
-Still maintains a positive outlook on the game by telling team to "w/e just play the game, we'll be fine"
-Asks for reports on TF and Irelia for verbal abuse/flaming/refusing to cooperate at the absolute end of the game
~Irelia verbally bashes teammates all game while failing to concentrate on the game and made the mistake of picking AP runes.
Examples:
- condescending on opponents "did you honestly just build Ninja Tabi against an Irelia with 30 AP?
-flame war with tf "[after dying top] thanks mid not like I was top for 4 ****ing minutes with you guys 2 ****ing seconds away needing help", "don't ****ing teach me how to play, I'm better than you'll ever be", "(after being called out for picking AP runes) you don't know ****ing **** about ****ing irelia" "you think AD runes will ****ing help for ****?" "MY ****ING ARMOR RUNES YOU DUMB ****ING ****HEAD", "you dumb**** I'm playing against ****ing riven", etc...
-raging at the poor flow of the game: "I didn't ****ing need any ****ing help 1v****ing 3 all ****ing day" "you blind mother****ers", "I did pick the right ****ing runes (lol.)", "report tf and noc and graves (response from other team: "so the entire team?")
~TF also verbally bashed everyone during the game while flaming against Irelia all game.
-flame war with irelia: "so this is how team fights are going to go, not being about to dodge spears?", "that's just ****ing great", "(when Irelia was off solofarming) what the **** are you ****ing doing",
-raging at the poor flow of the game: "**** this gay game", "nid is so ****ing farmed now, yes I can ****ing see", "don't worry about the ****ing poompatrt(sic)??? guys, ****"
> In this game, the only mistake I made was a condescending comment about Irelia smoking too much weed.
If Irelia wants to run AP runes, that is her choice. You have no right to dictate what runes or masteries use for a champion.You and TF harassed Irelia the whole game, so I don't blame Irelia much for her attitude, she was going against a tough lane with Riven and having her teammates mock and question her wasn't making it any better. I would punish for this case.

Quote:
Game 3:
-Teemo is trolling by doing jungle solo wraiths and taking it from maokai
-Sona who has been raging since champ select intentionally abandons me at bot to roam and doens't ward
-I start getting fed and begin to carry the team along with cassiopeia
-Maokai building terrible items and playing terribly while refusing to listen to advice, (he realizes this: "im sorry guys i told you i couldn't jungle"
-Cassiopeia very obviously assisting enemy team by allowing me to be picked off every single fight intentionally, ("I didn't wanna save you", "(after being called out for griefing) I just don't like you, it's okay"
-I was rather vocal during this game by pointing out problems while being slightly agigated, but no verbal abuse or offensive langauge
Teemo is trolling because he took wraiths? I don't think so, maybe he wanted a advantage before he went top. You the only one asking to report Teemo, so team didn't seem to think it was a problem.

Complaining in all chat about your support really does nothing about your support, but makes you look pathetic. You could of asked Sona to come back to lane or you could of hugged turret and farmed that way for awhile till jungler help.

Mao actually says he can't jungle before ANYONE gives him advice and if he told you that he couldn't jungle why is he playing jungle? Throughout the game you made rude comments toward him in all chat to make yourself feel better.

Cass wasn't assisting enemy IMO. You complaining about being caught, blaming Cass and Sona for not trying around and helping. If you got caught then you got caught, I wouldn't turn back around to help if I know me being there would give them 2 kills instead of just 1, sorry but you just wasn't fast enough, no need to blame teammates.

You displayed neg. attitude throughout the game, but not much verbal abuse which contained cussing or offensive language. I wouldn't pardon this game, but would be leaning towards punish maybe.


Quote:
Game 4: (1700+ elo game)
-Playing entire game with positive attitude save for a few parts where Orianna very obviously was not taking the game seriously (admitted: "its k first game ori. didnt even know this account had her", "zz phone degays i had call for like past 4 min"
-Malphite flaming the entire team sparked defensive remarks from myself: "you guys gotta be kidding me really bad", "ezreal you suck, this ezreal jesus", "stfu you loseing(sic) lane, see? ezreal you really suck"
-At the end of the game I asked players to report malphite for verbal abuse, and he sent in a report on me
Quote:
Ezreal [00:16:59] orianna...
Ezreal [00:17:02] wtf was that...
Ezreal [00:17:31] you whiff an easy kill and then you suicide...
Ezreal [00:17:32] derp
The last part of the aboved isn't positive attitude.

Quote:
Ezreal [00:19:36] throwing so hard
Ezreal [00:19:37] sigh
nor this

You was negative at times and blamed your teammates when something with wrong. Nothing wrong with this case expect a little neg. attitude

Quote:
Game 5:
-This game I was duo queuing with my friend in MID and was being invaded all over my jungle
-Maintaining positive attitude and giving positive reinforcement to teammates until irelia raging at me for failing a gank in her lane (with no negative repurcussions to her though)
-Defending myself against an onslaught of insults by irelia: "you haven't dont **** this entire game, bad junglers make the best excuses"
-Irelia essentially quitting the game even though there was a chance of winning: "I don't feel like playing, trying, don't even want to try" "you guys don't deserve it" while flaming the team by calling us "**** elo child"
-Ezreal flaming me all game because I didn't gank bot as it was very warded. Admits to "*****ing at [alistar]"
-Report sent in by Irelia who quit playing in the middle of the game, yet calls everyone else children. The description in the report perfectly matches her attitude treating all teammates as children.

Quote:
Irelia [00:15:25] you got me killed
Irelia [00:15:27] because you want to invade
Irelia [00:15:29] as alistair.
Alistar [00:15:38] should've just got out of there
Alistar [00:15:41] instead of tunneling
Alistar [00:15:43] derp
Irelia [00:15:48] LOL you pinged it
Irelia [00:15:53] LOL.
If you make a call and it turn out to be a bad call, you shouldn't be like "oh well, you should of been able to avoid it"

Arguing in all chat isn't good. You can still go bottom to show "jungler presence", it will help enemy from pushing lanes, because they will be afraid of you "possibly" coming.


You could of showed a better attitude and communicated better with your teammates.

I would possibly either Skip this game or punish it, if I took in account all of your games.

Quote:
I know I wasn't exactly an angel, but my response wasn't at all unreasonable for most of the time and I believe that in these situations, Riot shouldn't punish players for defending themselves in chat if they follow the summoner's code.
You wasn't defending yourself in all your games.

Defending yourself gives you no rules to act any way you want to

Overall: You not the worst offender, but your behavior can need some changes.


EDIT: Took me 30mins to do this post...


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KineticSkink

Senior Member

12-10-2012

1) Don't engage with trolls. It just turns into two the in game chat equivalent of two monkeys flinging poo at each other.

2) Stop calling for reports, as Lyte as previously noted, the most toxic players tend to also be the ones who call for reports every game.


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ºmº

Member

12-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post

Tribunal is bias against the reported player? No, its the same as if you was in US courts, the court is reviewing your behavior so your crimes which you committed are on review, Tribunal just highlight your chat to make it easier to read for us.




You don't get in Tribunal for 1 game. You have to have a history of behavior which violates the Summoner Code for a Tribunal case to be even made against you.





Good point, but I'm sure most Tribunal-goers read the entire chat for the context.



This is the same as your 1st problem.



Those are just lucky/false pardons. It is believed there is a group of trolls just going in Tribunal and clicking pardon to get people off, who knows? *shrugs*



Care to elaborate on "many", I hardly seen many players wrongly punished.



People get lucky. Same as in real life, but if they have that kind of behavior which got them in the Tribunal in the first place they be back.



Your actions in game defend yourself.

You have chances to ignore people who are harassing you before deciding to sink to their level.

You can choose to be helpful to someone instead of insulting them.





The time use to be 60 seconds and people make this claim, now it 20 seconds and people making this claim still. What time is "enough" for you to think people won't insta-punish?



You asked enemy to report Kat,why? She didn't seem to be doing anything wrong.

Nothing wasn't punishable in this game really, but some of your "jokes" was borderline. I wouldn't punish for this game.



If Irelia wants to run AP runes, that is her choice. You have no right to dictate what runes or masteries use for a champion.You and TF harassed Irelia the whole game, so I don't blame Irelia much for her attitude, she was going against a tough lane with Riven and having her teammates mock and question her wasn't making it any better. I would punish for this case.



Teemo is trolling because he took wraiths? I don't think so, maybe he wanted a advantage before he went top. You the only one asking to report Teemo, so team didn't seem to think it was a problem.

Complaining in all chat about your support really does nothing about your support, but makes you look pathetic. You could of asked Sona to come back to lane or you could of hugged turret and farmed that way for awhile till jungler help.

Mao actually says he can't jungle before ANYONE gives him advice and if he told you that he couldn't jungle why is he playing jungle? Throughout the game you made rude comments toward him in all chat to make yourself feel better.

Cass wasn't assisting enemy IMO. You complaining about being caught, blaming Cass and Sona for not trying around and helping. If you got caught then you got caught, I wouldn't turn back around to help if I know me being there would give them 2 kills instead of just 1, sorry but you just wasn't fast enough, no need to blame teammates.

You displayed neg. attitude throughout the game, but not much verbal abuse which contained cussing or offensive language. I wouldn't pardon this game, but would be leaning towards punish maybe.






The last part of the aboved isn't positive attitude.



nor this

You was negative at times and blamed your teammates when something with wrong. Nothing wrong with this case expect a little neg. attitude






If you make a call and it turn out to be a bad call, you shouldn't be like "oh well, you should of been able to avoid it"

Arguing in all chat isn't good. You can still go bottom to show "jungler presence", it will help enemy from pushing lanes, because they will be afraid of you "possibly" coming.


You could of showed a better attitude and communicated better with your teammates.

I would possibly either Skip this game or punish it, if I took in account all of your games.



You wasn't defending yourself in all your games.

Defending yourself gives you no rules to act any way you want to

Overall: You not the worst offender, but your behavior can need some changes.


EDIT: Took me 30mins to do this post...jesus christ.
Hey could you please remove the "jesus christ" part from your post, it could be considered offensive by others, and it offends me and really has no purpose or use in your post.
Thanks.


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Getsuei

Senior Member

12-10-2012

I

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony06112 View Post
Riot shouldn't punish players for defending themselves in chat if they follow the summoner's code.
I agree with this, to an extent. I do not agree that you should be pardoned.

7. Myth: You can't get punished for being provoked into raging by another player. - Fact: You are expected to control yourself on the keyboard, especially since it is a keyboard and not your mouth. You will get punished if you rage in chat. If you respond by cutting off communication with your entire team altogether, that may actually work against you as that can be considered another form of raging.

Game 3:

If Mao has no issues with Teemo getting an early lane advantage by taking wraiths, you should not either. You have been talking bad to most people in the game, making it negative for just about everyone. It is not suprising at all that they would not help you. You created a negative experience and it just festers from there. You have nothing positive to say about a single person on your entire team, instead of giving them a heartfelt comment about them being noobs. Mao admitted that he was a horrible jungler at the beginning of the game. How long do you rip on him for it?

Points that you broke:
3. Negative Attitude - This violation usually occurs when a player makes negative remarks in chat about his/her allies or the progress of the match. This can include complaining about how poorly oneself or an ally is performing, or saying that the match has been lost before it is over. Asking for advice or giving genuine tips without insulting remarks would be the reasonable act in a bad situation but code violators tend to treat others poorly instead, thus being marked for "negative attitude".

4. Verbal Abuse - This violation is usually the result of repeatedly teasing other players beyond the limits of playful ribbing. Throwing insults around and making fun of others is often seen in these cases. Insults towards one's own teammates tend to be less tolerated than insults towards an opposing team.

The Summoners Code
Support Your Team - Once the game gets into full swing, you have to make a choice between being a positive force for your team, or contributing to your own demise.


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Redjik

Senior Member

12-10-2012

Riot has already stated there is no allowance for "defending yourself."

You mute and report after. You are not given a choice of spewing filth back at the other person.

In all honesty, most of the OP's statement lacks any base and half of it has already been stated otherwise by Riot employee(s).

Not anything new.


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Norwenna

Senior Member

12-10-2012

yes tribunal is biased and dont work


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Getsuei

Senior Member

12-10-2012

When is your ban done with Norwenna?


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Shiister

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by m View Post
Hey could you please remove the "jesus christ" part from your post, it could be considered offensive by others, and it offends me and really has no purpose or use in your post.
Thanks.
I will since you answered nicely. Sorry if I offended you or others.


12