Black Cleaver is Over Powered

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axesandspears

Senior Member

12-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustMyBassCannon View Post
Show me a level 5 League player who can outplay a cactus and I might take anything he says about balance seriously.

Yes, Black Cleaver should have been unique from the start. At the same time, people who are having trouble with Cleaver stacking should build health instead of armor if they want to tank it. Who cares if they deal 200 true damage per attack (most likely less than 1 attack per second) when you have a 5k lifebar?
Say bass. Stop being a jerk and shut up.

Defense is not just about health-stacking, it is about building both health and armor to provide the durability to actually live a little. Right now, penetration is too easily accessible.

Besides, building armor is counterbuilding physical damage.


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TealNinje

Senior Member

12-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by axesandspears View Post
Say bass. Stop being a jerk and shut up.

Defense is not just about health-stacking, it is about building both health and armor to provide the durability to actually live a little. Right now, penetration is too easily accessible.

Besides, building armor is counterbuilding physical damage.
Nowhere has anyone posted any proof no matter how remote it is.

It's just "This combination is OP!" without any real attempts to counter it. Ex has posted one counter which may or may not be enough to counter your stupid "Black Cleaver Spam" complaints. You want to know the only time I've seen multiple Black Cleavers actually do anything? When the user had complete freedom to attack because his teammates covered his rear end entirely, and he was an AD Caster who literally did not have a good auto. He put EVERYTHING he had into damage, and succeeded because of his teammates covering him.

It's the same as the ranged AD ideal, except now more people are capable of doing it, and it is STILL LESS POWERFUL THAN A LATE GAME RANGED AD CARRY.


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

12-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by axesandspears View Post
Say bass. Stop being a jerk and shut up.

Defense is not just about health-stacking, it is about building both health and armor to provide the durability to actually live a little. Right now, penetration is too easily accessible.

Besides, building armor is counterbuilding physical damage.
You're the first person to purposely refer to me by my current name (unless you didn't know I changed)

I know defense isn't purely health stacking, but if someone's just stacking Cleavers, they can't do anything to a target with high HP because they have no attack speed, no %HP and no Crits.

Nothing I've said necessarily disagrees that penetration is readily available, possibly too much so; I'm just saying there are still noticeable weaknesses to stacking Cleavers, which is what this topic is complaining about. I just decided to point out the very obvious weakness of "you have low damage output so I hope your opponent is stupid enough to build what you're counter-building."


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TMTrainer

Senior Member

12-12-2012

You don't need to Armor pen 100%, 1 BC and 1 LW on any ADC or AD Top (Garen, Wukong) and suddenly, armor does nothing. This makes all armor-based tanks useless. Its not that I don't counter-build, its that fact that it made heroes like Rammus useless against something that it should counter.

Black Cleaver, Last Whisper, Infinity Edge, Phantom Dancer, Situational, Boots.


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v ã n

Junior Member

12-12-2012

Skill means nothing any more if you go against a team stacking cleavers. Riot please fix this like yesterday. Thanks. -____-


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

12-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CurseTheDragon View Post
You don't need to Armor pen 100%, 1 BC and 1 LW on any ADC or AD Top (Garen, Wukong) and suddenly, armor does nothing. This makes all armor-based tanks useless. Its not that I don't counter-build, its that fact that it made heroes like Rammus useless against something that it should counter.

Black Cleaver, Last Whisper, Infinity Edge, Phantom Dancer, Situational, Boots.
inb4 Rammus was nerfed pretty hard and Malphite was the most complained about armor-focused bruiser-semitank in the game even though he was balanced.

You're right though, it is irritating that someone scaling off Armor is losing the benefit that easily.
Quote:
Originally Posted by v n View Post
Skill means nothing any more if you go against a team stacking cleavers. Riot please fix this like yesterday. Thanks. -____-
Really? Haven't had much trouble with cleaver stacking teams. Hell, I played a Vlad game recently, they had 3-4 cleavers and our team still won totally by outplaying them.


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Spearchucking

Member

12-12-2012

Black Cleaver seriously needs to be nerfed.

18-1-14 Lee Sin with 3 Cleavers, Boots, and a Vamp Scepter.


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

12-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niranya View Post
Black Cleaver seriously needs to be nerfed.

18-1-14 Lee Sin with 3 Cleavers, Boots, and a Vamp Scepter.
I wonder how Lee Sin got fed enough to buy 3 Black Cleavers...


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Cavil

Junior Member

12-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niranya View Post
Black Cleaver seriously needs to be nerfed.

18-1-14 Lee Sin with 3 Cleavers, Boots, and a Vamp Scepter.
I dont see how you could feed a lee sin that bad then blame an Item (you or your team feed that bad*) but i mean anyone fed is overpowered, maybe switch playstyle and be more passive and sit by turret seeing as though lee is squishy and may not be willing to go into the turret with no resistance.


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Arcere

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Junior Member

12-12-2012

The problem people don't understand with cleavers is the passive itself. You say stack health? Unfortunately for me (I was playing quite a bit of rammus recently and did just that) Black Cleavers are armor REDUCTION not PENETRATION. I agree black cleaver is overpowered, but it is for both that reason and the non-unique flat armor pen on it in combination that make it absurdly ridiculous. Miss Fortune, Talon, Pantheon, Wukong, and Garen are having a field day. Consider the following, if both mid and top AD bruisers stack black cleaver, and the ranged AD builds normally - you might as well not tank at all. Team Game, Black cleaver is EASILY overpowered. Especially considering the prices - Last whisper costs 2160 for 35% PENETRATION and 40 damage...where as Black Cleaver costs 3000 for 7.5% armor REDUCTION up to 4 times (which can be almost instantly stacked due to being on hit w/procs on abilities) providing 30% for the entire team....and you get 10 more damage than last whisper/250 more health/15 more NON-unique flat armor pen AND 10% CDR? That's not even REMOTELY balanced....*sigh* just frustrated with this item currently


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