Riot, are you seriously nerfing brutalizer?

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koticgood

Senior Member

12-10-2012

Do whatever the hell you want to Black Cleaver if you think it's OP, it's a new item and you should balance it however you see fit.

But what's up with the nerf on Brutalizer on the PBE? It makes no sense. This item has been a perfectly balanced staple for a long time, and I just don't understand this nerf.

p.s. to give some perspective, this item was introduced on october 9th, 2009, over three years ago. The item's stats have been changed ZERO TIMES since it's introduction. It's had the same stats for over 3 years, which is amazing.



edit: my attempt at organic/intuitive solutions to rebalancing Black Cleaver minus the heavy-handed nerfs currently proposed, while also leaving brutalizer untouched:

-Make the armor penetration and cooldown reduction on Black Cleaver unique, and make it the same unique passive as Brutalizer, so they don't stack. It's been unique on brutalizer for a reason. Flat penetration synergizes with flat penetration. If you could stack haunting guise, every single AP would buy sorc shoes + 5 haunting guise (4 guise + 1 void staff if they have tons of mr).

and/or

-Instead of Black Cleaver placing a debuff that reduces armor, have it give the user a buff that increases armor penetration.

and/or

-Slight health nerf to Black Cleaver. You get 180 from ruby crystal and 250 from Cleaver. Maybe make cleaver give 200

and/or

-Maybe 6% per stack instead of 7.5%

All these are possible changes that make more sense and leave brutalizer untouched.


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Doom Owl

Senior Member

12-10-2012

They need to rebalance flat pen because of the change in how pen is calculated


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koticgood

Senior Member

12-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by celloguy View Post
They need to rebalance flat pen because of the change in how pen is calculated
% armor reduction was already calculated before flat penetration prior to season 3. The only thing that changed is % pen is now calculated prior to flat penetration. The took 2% and 1 flat arpen off in masteries, as well as nerfing arpen marks to make up for this. So, unless you have a Last Whisper and a brutalizer, your point doesn't quite hold up. The brutalizer nerf has nothing to do with penetration calculations and all to do with a kneejerk reaction to everything related to Black Cleaver.


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Doom Owl

Senior Member

12-10-2012

%pen is now calculated before, significantly increasing the power of flat pen, so they slightly nerf flat pen.

Logical to me.

The reason they changed pen calculations wasnt to increase the power of flat pen, but because it was discouraging the option of building flat pen for early game and % for late game in the same build


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koticgood

Senior Member

12-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by celloguy View Post
%pen is now calculated before, significantly increasing the power of flat pen, so they slightly nerf flat pen.

Logical to me.

The reason they changed pen calculations wasnt to increase the power of flat pen, but because it was discouraging the option of building flat pen for early game and % for late game in the same build
Like I tried to say above, they already did nerf flat pen. Arpen marks were nerfed, flat arpen mastery was nerfed, % arpen mastery was nerfed. Brutalizer, even with the current 15arpen, is worse now than it was before, until you get black cleaver or last whisper.

It is a complete knee jerk reaction to Black Cleaver to lump Brutalizer in with the nerfs. The ONLY reason Brutalizer (which has not had its stats changed in 3+ years, and is more underpowered now with the arpen nerfs) is being nerfed is to simply coincide with the nerfs to Black Cleaver. Riot thinks Black Cleaver is OP, so they nerf it. They are nerfing the arpen on it, down to 10, so naturally the item it builds from has to go down to 10 arpen as well.

So, to try and reiterate AGAIN, Brutalizer is WORSE than it was before, until you have brutalizer AND last whisper or black cleaver. Riot really messed up by making the arpen/cdr not unique, and instead of logically fixing the problem, they are nerfing stuff randomly. If you could have stacked brutalizers before, it would have been overpowered as ****. 4 brutalizers would be 100dmg, 40% cdr, 60flat arpen, all for only a bit over 5k gold. That's why you COULDN'T stack it. Now they made it so you can, again, because of Black Cleaver.

The brutalizer nerf has absolutely nothing to do with the change in order of calculations for arpen. It has everything to do with its interaction with, and association with, Black Cleaver. They are nerfing the most stable item BY FAR in the history of League of Legends solely because of a new item.


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hashinshin

Senior Member

12-10-2012

Brutalizer was always massively overrated. There's a reason the tournaments always saw TONS of flat MR penetration on champions even when the items never built in to anything. Brutalizer despite at least building in to something saw 0 use. Coincidence?


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BACKSTABUUU

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Senior Member

12-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by celloguy View Post
They need to rebalance flat pen because of the change in how pen is calculated
It kind of defeats the purpose of changing the way flat pen is calculated when you then nerf it so that it does about the same damage you did before.


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koticgood

Senior Member

12-11-2012

As opposed to a knee jerk reaction, I believe either or both of the following make much more sense than the proposed nerfs on the pbe:

-Make the armor penetration and cooldown reduction on Black Cleaver unique, and make it the same unique passive as Brutalizer, so they don't stack. It's been unique on brutalizer for a reason. Flat penetration synergizes with flat penetration. If you could stack haunting guise, every single AP would buy sorc shoes + 5 haunting guise (4 guise + 1 void staff if they have tons of mr).
-Instead of Black Cleaver placing a debuff that reduces armor, have it give the user a buff that increases armor penetration.

Either, or if really deemed necessary, both of those changes make much more sense to me than the sadly expected knee-jerk-reaction nerf to the stats currently proposed, while also avoiding nerfing brutalizer for no reason.


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Kariya

Junior Member

12-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by celloguy View Post
They need to rebalance flat pen because of the change in how pen is calculated
Armor penetration was calculated the same as now in season 1, when brutalizer existed with the same stats


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IS1d5b61a8733e170555aa6

Senior Member

12-11-2012

because now it builds into black cleaver


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